Steve,
It is wishful thinking to imagine that the shortened version and Murtha's version are substantively different. Either we cut and run or we stay. I think Republicans are getting tired of having to be the grown-ups, explaining why Murtha's measure is irresponsible. If Dems think cutting and running is really and truly a good idea, let them vote for Murtha's measure as a substitute. Whatcha wanna bet those who vote for it are counting on the Rs to do the right thing and vote it down? Ahh, the hazards of being taken at one's word....

Mike - why don't you write to your congressional rep as well as Hastert and Blount and ASK THEM why they won't allow a vote on Murtha's resolution??

After all, it was these two who made the decision to propose an alternate wording to the original one already available.

Mike,
So we stay forever---52nd state?

Mike - Take the time to either watch Murther's press conference or read the transcript. (It was on C-SPAN last night.) Then come back, if you have the gall, and discuss maturity and responsibility.

Saddam's gone. New govt elected. 80% of Iraqis want us out. Our presence is a magnet for the worst kind of terrorizing zealots. Unless our goal is to colonize or steal their oil, then wtf are we still doing there?

'Better there than here' is worse than a coward's refrain. If you decide to help your neighbor out and a person who hates you decides to throw rocks at you while you are in your neighbors yard, and these rocks start breaking your neighbor's windows...I mean, would you ever in your wildest dreams say something OUT LOUD like, "Well, better over here than in my yard."

We're killing the people we were suppose to be saving. Our enemies have followed us in and are also killing Iraqis and we have these smarmy, draft dodging, corporate whores in Washington, publicly stating, in front of children even, with an ungodly, horrifying lack of shame, " Better over there...."

The Republicans know that the Democrats will vote against the simplistic "immediately". They will use the vote to say that nobody supports Murtha, not even Murtha. Of course it's a lie, but they've been setting his position up as immediate withdrawal.

Similarly Woodward's testimony will be used to say that Fitzgerald didn't get his facts right because he said in his indictment that Libby was the first official to reveal Plame. Of course this is a lie, too. There's nothing about it in the indictment or press release. According to the transcript of the news conference, Fitgerald referred to this twice. Originally he says Libby was "the first official known to have told a reporter . . ." Later he makes the assertion without using the word "known", but this must be understood in the context of the original statement. Fitzgerald got the facts right.

I see Republicans are requesting an ethics probe of Murtha and his ties to his brother's consulting firm. Who said Karl Rove wasn't in charge anymore?

just an historical aside...

who was the founder of the post ww2 republican party? for all practical purposes, it was former general of the army - dwight david eisenhower.

and what was his major plank in his run for the rose garden? it was to end harry's madcap and homicidal invasion of korea.

ironic isn't it, a republican who served decades in the army, responsible for the investment of thousands of men into maws of death, takes a political position to end a war against godless communism. and wins the election. and does what he says he was going to do - end active hostilities.

i think jack murtha served in harry's korean war and was rescued by ike.

for reasons known only to murtha, he turned a deaf ear to former usmc commandant david shoup. he elected to believe in the villain from the pedernales and reupped to go and kill vietnamese.

perhaps in these last years of his life he has gained eisenhower's understanding.

the dems are so goddam disorganized, so rudderless, so inept....had murtha just used the korean war and ike and his "bring the boys home" as the prologue to his speechifying, he could have thrown the reptillians in the hole.

is there no aspect of the demtillian party that thinks?

"Here's what [crazy Jean] Schmidt said, word for word: "Yesterday I stood at Arlington National Cemetery attending the funeral of a young marine in my district. He believed in what we were doing is the right thing and had the courage to lay his life on the line to do it. A few minutes ago I received a call from Colonel Danny Bop, Ohio Representative from the 88th district in the House of Representatives. He asked me to send Congress a message: Stay the course. He also asked me to send Congressman Murtha a message, that cowards cut and run, Marines never do. Danny and the rest of America and the world want the assurance from this body – that we will see this through."

so it's name calling for the reality crowd. small penance for saving the lives of our troops.

i say we cut and run. let the next nation put itself on a pedestal.

I think the ferocity of the Republican attacks show the deep sense of panic in their party after the Murtha press conference.

But more than just reflecting the feelings of his constituents, the real problem is that Murtha is probably speaking for many military leaders. Murtha spends a good deal of his time with officers and wouldn't have made this break without consulting them.

I know some dyed in the wool Republican military people at fairly high levels, and they haven't been happy with this war for a while.

I applaud Congressman Murtha's bravery in taking a stand and speaking for those without a voice in this war. Which unfortunately includes a majority of the American people.

Do listen to Murtha's entire presentation. He also is deeply concerned that we are less secure today and that our military is spread so thin with lower rates of reenlistment and recruitment. We don't have the strengrth/depth to fight two major military actions at once. Our equipment is badly damaged and not replaced. He cares about our troops and about how they are the only ones paying the price.

It's not as simple as "cut and run" v. "stay the course." He deserves from readers of this blog who oppose the war at least as much support as we gave Voinovich for his stand against Bolton. He made brave and public declaration, and he does not deserve to be attacked ad hominem.

It took a lot of attempts to get through to his office today to offer support. The number is (202) 225-2065. His website is www.house.gov/murtha.

I

It too

Bush's argument that "leaving = quitting = losing" means we can NEVER leave Iraq under that logic.

Murtha speaks with translucent moral clarity, imho. He knows what bloodshed means, and he's been spending time with those who've lost blood and limbs in Walter Reed. He also speaks with decades of experience regarding war, law, democracy. I hope people listen to him, reflect on that, and respond appropriately.

No one on either side is talking about cutting and running. That is total BS media spin crap.

The issue at its core is that Bush wants to stay the course, meaning that US troops stay in Iraq doing what they are doing. Bush refuses to seek a political solution and believes he can win a military victory in Iraq that will produce the political solution he desires. Bush doesn't care how many soldiers die or how much he degrades the military capability in the process as long as Bush does not have to back down and lose face.

The alternative is to force Bush to admit that the US military has done about all it could do. Military mission was accomplished in 2003 with the fall of Baghdad and ouster of Saddam. Everything since then has been colonial occupation. Bush should have pulled out after Mission accomplished. Once the military mission is accomplished, it must be followed by a political solution.

Bush has failed to find a political solution to Iraq. Bush needs to be told to start working on the political solution because from where I sit, I see no signs that Bush is doing those things necessary to pave the way to ending the Iraq occupation. Indeed he seems to be planning a permanent mission for the US in Iraq.

The American people do not support a permanent US mission in Iraq. Bush needs to understand that Congress is responsive to the people and will not be allowed to support a permanent mission in Iraq indefinitely. Bush needs to hear this, because otherwise, he will not prepare the way for the US to leave Iraq. The reason why it seems we don't have a good way to leave Iraq currently is because Mr Bush has failed to do his job as a politician.

Iraq is a military success and a political failure. Bush and his Republican supporters still think that Iraq is a military failure. Bush needs to own his political failure and take steps to correct his failed policies. Bush should not be allowed to continue to abuse our military to backstop his failed politics. Mr Bush needs to be told to seek a successful political solution.

For those who do not study military history, it is a common misconception that wars of any sort end when one army crushes and annihilates another. This has never been the case. Our own Civil War was ended by a series of agreements. The first and most prominent between RE Lee and Grant at Appomattix, and subsequently the agreement by Johnston to surrender all remaining Confederate troops to Sherman at Raleigh.

Or we can go to the surrender of Cornwallis at Yorktown and the treaty that followed. You see wars are not about armies annihilating each other. That does not happen because soldiers on both sides wish to survive. DUH. This is why forever and a day, wars have always ended when politicians have agreed to cease hostilities.

Bush is an idiot. He has no military experience. He only has Texas swagger. Bush understands Travis. Bush does not understand Johnston, nor Sherman nor Lee. This is why Congress needs to come down very hard on Bush. Bush is a POLITICAL FAILURE in Iraq. The political failure of Bush is killing our military and dividing our country. Something has to get through to Bush that his political solution for Iraq is FUBAR. Everyone who loves this country needs to send that message to Bush. You WILL find a POLITICAL solution to Iraq that will bring our troops home!!! American Patriots will accept no less.

This is Viet Nam revisited.
A public out cry for a new direction, a new plan
and maybe even a little hint of what our strategy is in Iraq...
and day by day more troops die.
But Bush/Cheney will stay the course.
We will be there as long as Bush is in office.
After tonight, how can Republicans support ANY withdrawal?
Murtha for President -:)

Well, the PNAC neocons were sure that their Iraq invasion would be greeted with roses and gratitude. Surprise, their foreign policy experiment in imperialism has been a disastrous failure, both socially and fiscally, and yet they expect the United States residents to greet them with accolades and votes. Guess they weren't expecting dissent within our borders. 0 for 2. When will the real Republicans take back their party already?

I sincerely hope that weekend newspapers carry the headline "HOUSE OVERWHELMINGLY REJECTS DUNCAN HUNTER'S AND GOP'S PROPOSAL OF IMMEDIATE WITHDRAWL."

Mr. Bush prides himself on his rigid ideological stances. He never admits to mistakes, he never changes his mind. If reality differs from the Bush world view, then reality is wrong and Bush is right.

Cognitive dissonance is the feeling of uncomfortable tension which comes from holding two conflicting thoughts in the mind at the same time. Rep. Murtha's message forced Republicans to think about a patriotic person opposing the war - placing them squarely in cognitive dissonance, Small wonder they're lashing out...

Steve,
I love the title to this article. Short, True and to the point.

bakho: Very well said.

I respect all the posters here at thewashingtonnote so please help me out here.

I have a question for all those who say: "we're fighting them over there so we won't have to fight them over here".

With our borders unprotected, especially the southern border and with only approximately one percent of the containers coming into the ports of this country inspected, what makes you think that we are all that safe here after all?

Could our military be better utilized here to help with "Homeland Security"? I don't know.

Oh, and could someone please explain to me what the phrase "stay the course" means? It appears to me (just my opionion) that it means our military members continue to be killed and maimed until we just run out of them since the recruiting numbers are continuing to drop.

I don't mean anything flaming or demeaning, I would just like answers to these questions.

Murtha wasn't just speaking his own mind. The subtext of his speech is that he is saying what the majority of his military contacts are saying and cannot express. (Howard Fineman confirmed this aspect of the importance of Murtha's remarks yesterday evening on "Hardball".)

How long can a war be fought when the sacrifice is borne only by the soldiers and their families? The troops in theatre are painfully aware of the corruption that has resulted in the politically connected looting millions of dollars sent to the Pentagon, while the troops get recalled or no body armor, slashed health care, three-tour endless deployments, bait-and-switch promises of bonuses and salaries, broken families, bodies, lives.

The Republicans should be very, very cautious to advocate "staying the course" in such a situation. What will it take for them to realize that the present situation is simply not working? A military coup?

Mike, who would you believe as the bearer of this message? You obviously don't believe Murtha, and you don't want to see the facts as they are because you are so determined to see the outcome that you want.

Would it take Colin Powell? Norman Schwartzkopf? Every single officer on the JCS? Who must tell you for you to finally understand that this gamble has failed and that we cannot fix it to be the way we want? How many more soldiers and citizens get killed before you say "enough"?

Why do you insist on clinging to the pipedreams spun by a group of men who have never seen combat and have no idea of what it actually means, instead of listening to the men who do this for a living?

......and the results are in....it's Wexler, McKinney and Serrano.....wouldn't you know it. Surprising that it took looking in 6 reports on this to find the names of the Troika, the Terrible Triplets. Grandstanders all.

By monday morning most of you will learn that Rumsfeld has on his desk a plan for withdrawal of US forces starting after the Dec. 15 elections. The plan, of course, has various target objectives in it, and is consistent with maintaining troop safety throughout the withdrawal. I guess that it should be called the military's proposed implementation of the Murtha Proposal. I sure am glad the house voted so strongly against withdrawal last night, because it would be a shame if we didn't keep our troops in Iraq forever.

President Bush has called an "early" withdrawal a "recipe for disaster". Well, that guy sure knows how to cook up a disaster, so I guess he knows the recipe. I might suggest that he is a little confused about the order of ingredients; it was actually an early invasion that was the key ingredient in the existing disaster.

peace,
on earth,
jim

We need our representatives to be honest, both with the executive branch and themselves.

Our republican representatives must admit to themselves and us that they have entered their own twilight zone. Only fantasy describes the positions they are taking now. Only cowardice describes the positions they are supporting.

"Staying the course" at any time that facts are against you is the equivalent of shouting "Lalalalalala..." in defense of your "mistakes". Normally, this is the cry of criminals who are desperately defending their enterprises. I personally doubt that these are not normal times, and that those who are still defending the murder of my military personnel are profiting from these murders.

Our country needs us to put the loudmouthed minority of neocon supporters in their place. They must be awakened from their fantasy of dominating the US, and made to support our preservation. In this case, the armchair warriors MUST be led to water and FORCED to drink. They must be deprogrammed from hating Liberalism, and taught to moderate their positions with healthy doses of reality. We are no longer in the business of forcing nations to be clones of the US, we are in the business of surviving this criminal administration, and protecting our nation from the INSIDE.

We have been robbed of the progress against indebtness. We have been robbed of our honorable reputation. We have been robbed of our economic success, and we are still being robbed of the lives of our children through the use of their willingness to be obedient to their leaders. It is way past time to arrest, prosecute and convict these leaders who so willingly spend our future pursuing the demise of our nation.

We must order out troops out of Iraq. Immediately would indeed be best, but orderly and firmly is better for the future of our country. Withdrawal can be as reasonable as Congressman Murtha has planned, or as humiliating as Viet Nam and Somalia.

I do not want to be responsible for the deaths and lifetime maiming of my little brothers and sisters in the pursuit of the "goals" of the NeoConservative Conspiracy. I want the children of the United States to be returned to my life as people who have been deceived but educated as to why propaganda can kill.

We must NOT "stay" the course of this war. We must get along in this world, before this world accelerates further our disgraced journey into history. We must no longer allow our nation to be robbed and raped by people who beat their chests as they hide behind the lives of our children.

WE MUST GET RID OF THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE SUBVERTED THE POLICY OF CONSERVATISM, even if we can only convict them of yelling FIRE in the theatre of our lives.

Congressional Republicans are desperate for some good news out of Iraq. Their panic will only increase as as the midterms loom. "Stay the course" and "as long as it takes" are beginning to look like poison, as is the President himself.

I have long suspected that, if necessary, Republicans could manufacture their own good news with highly publicized troop withdrawals, however modest, before the midterms. This was their ace in the hole. Murtha's visible and effective theater has just made playing that card much more difficult and complicated. No wonder they are as mad as wet hens.

When Murtha made his remarks I posted a comment on a Kos diary noting that this was a MAJOR MAJOR move and one that was going to cause BIG problems for the GOP.

Murtha is in the Scoop Jackson mould of Democrats....TOUGH on military issues and as others have noted here, his comments are not just his own, but reflect the information he gets from his constant contact with the military establishment AND with regular soldiers -- many of them now in military hospitals recovering from wounds received in combat.

Murtha doesn't speak to the press much, but he has built a reputation in Congress which is very strong and deeply respected. As a Kos poster noted, Murtha actually helped swing support for Howard Dean's appointment as Democratic Party Chairman with a statement that while he didn't always agree with Dean on every issue, he felt Dean had a good sense of the party's problems and a program to address them. Soon after that, other members of the party said they felt t hey needed to give Dean a second look.

The White House knew immediately that Murtha was a big problem for them.....that is why they (Rove) are pulling out the slime guns.

And you have to love Jeanne Schmidt who begins by making her statement in Congress yesterday afternoon and saying she has a message for Congressman Murtha which implies that he is a coward....and in virtually the same breath then says her remarks were not directed at any single member of Congress.

They don't even bother to worry about lying any more....just pile it on.

Jim Preston, I think you might very well be on to something. I'm so glad you noted the plan that has arrived on Rummie's desk at the same time the Republicans have attempted to force the Democrats' hand on withdrawals of troops from Iraq.

What do you think of this? As a conservative Republican, I know many in my party in both the Senate and the House are exceptionally concerned about 2006. I suppose Rove and the President,,are concerned,too. Now, the President cannot appear to want to prematurely withdraw troops especially while the Democrats and moderate Republicans are demanding it. To do so would be to admit he's failed, but what an expert way to call the Democrats on their dissent, making it look like only Republicans support the troops on paper, while at the same time implementing a plan that is really no different from the one offered by the Democrats. It seems Cheney and Rove are back at the helm.

I would respectfully suggest to both of those gents, however, that most Americans are no longer going to easily buy their sometimes clever yet often inappropriate plans especially when promiments members of their party - memebers who went to great lengths to avoid military service -make such dastardly venomous and unfounded personal attacks against patriots such as Congressman Murtha simply because they disagree.

On another note, for those of you out there, who've asked what the hell does "stay the course mean", I'll tell you. It means, no matter how or why we got into this debacle of the Iraq War in the first place, we have to help the Iraqis successfully establish some sort of reaonable government that's capable of taking care of its people and capable of defending itself against enemies such as Iran. Although I question even today why in the hell we went to Iraq in the first place, we have to support our troops in their endeavors to "stay the course". If we don't and either the President pulls them back or Congress pulls them back premmaturely, then, chaos will very likely ensue leading to a power vacuum or, worse, with a puppet such as Chalabi in power, we might be forced to send thousands of more troops into the Middle East at a later time in order to fight an enemy such as Iran that, empowered by their new found ally and former enemy Iraq, is even a more formidable enemy to us.

With a new secretary of defense, one who can command the respect of the troops and the mainstream public, a President who's willing to admit mistakes and correct them, a Vice-President who's willing to work with Congress and not strongarm it, and a Secretary of State who's willing to work hard for diplomacy, by staying the course we might just succeed. Since it seems we only have the last one of the four, "staying the course" will be a very difficult task in deed for our troops and that's why we must do everything in our power to support them in their endeavors.

Although I disagree with Congressman Murtha and Senator Hagel on this one point, I agree with them on a variety of other issues and I welcome anyone who has the experience and knowledge they do to step forward and share their views. We should encourage those in the public arena who have such experience to step forward and speak, not vilify them. I only wish those whom I helped elect to office had the same maturity and respect to view things the same way I do.

Why does anyone in their right mind expect BushCo to have an exit strategy? They lied so much to justify invading Iraq, it's clear they WANT TO BE THERE.

Since neither staying the course or cutting and running are acceptable options, why don't Dem leaders call for a greater role by the UN? As we withdraw, why can't UN Peacekeepers come in and UN Special Advisors to help them develope their governmental infrastructure? The Sunnis requested that the UN play a greater role, as well as the Arab League, so why not?

The answer is that BushCo doesn't give a flying F***K about Iraqi government, only who signs the oil oleases giving American companies CONTROL over Iraq's oil resources. And besdies, peace is not profitable if you own defense shares. They want war. W stands for Wall to Wall War.

Murtha has also given voice to an idea that seems to be emerging, slowly, across the political spectrum. Almost everyone has assumed to date that Iraq was a solvable problem. Do A then B and follow with C and reach an acceptable result. The arguments have been about such things as was A big enough, should C really follow B or could they happen simultaneously, is B properly constituted, is the result worth the expense. Problem solving.

Murtha seems to be saying that Iraq can't be solved by us because WE are the problem. If this idea is accepted as a premise then staying the course, fiddling with numbers or reaching for milestones are, by definition, futile exercises. Our removal becomes the solution. There are, of course, lots of potential problems with this approach, both practical and political, but it will be interesting to see if this "re-think" begins to gain traction amongst Democrats and the public.

first of all, Jean Schmidt didnt call Murtha anything- A serving Marine did. Just shoot the messenger and obfuscate the message.

Second, if anyone of you seriously think that if Murtha's resolution passed, that IMMEDIATELY, repeat, IMMEDIATELY, it would be rightly construed as get them out NOW!!!!!!!!!!

Some clown said Truman's invasion of Korea??? Is that what you are reduced to? Bald faced lies??? Ike got us out of Korea alright, when the situation was stabilized nad the Korean people, 50 years later, are still free.

I see all the posts saying that "stay the course" is going to be a recipe for electoral disaster for the Repub's. Funny, I think stay the course won a million-3.

What is the problem for you people to tell what you stand for?? I have spoken with SOOOOOOO many ultra liberals who want us out of Iraq yesterday. Why don't your elected officials cut the hyperbole and say what you want them to say? Because after 2006 there would be a lot less liberal elected officials. You have to lie to gain power. Pathetic.

You mean a living version of a John Wayne character. Or a living version of the man John Wayne thought he had become.

Of course, John Wayne never served in the armed forces. John Ford took a break from Hollywood and joined the Navy. Making documentaries them including filming the Battle of Midway. He ended up with the rank of Commander.

Ford used to tease John Wayne mercilessly about this: that he was an able-bodied male who didn't fight, yet he played muy-macho heros on the screen. Biographers speculate that Wayne's hawkish jingoism developed as way of compensating for this.

Amazing. It's obvious that many on this blog believe (a) Bush lied and (b) Cut & Run is the prudent action to take.
When the Repubs point this out and/or force the Dims to say yeh or nay, the leftoids jump into action and screem bloody murder on just about every tangential issue except the one at hand.
You got Proof Bush lied? Present the documents. He'll lose support from everyone. If you don't, shut your pie hole!
If you truly believe the Murta res and what they voted on was fundamentally different, then I suggest you get an English speaking adult to sign all legal papers for you from now on.

Kathleen, you wrote: "Why does anyone in their right mind expect BushCo to have an exit strategy? They lied so much to justify invading Iraq, it's clear they WANT TO BE THERE."

You've touched on something important. Dem's have gone after BushCo for sometime about the incompetence displayed in their execution of the way. The GOP just kinda ignores it. Meh, no biggie.

But look at how they've reacted to 2 recent lines of attack: the twisting of intelligence in the run-up to war, and the idea of withdrawing from Iraq. Being in Iraq means an awful lot, enough to have them absolutely freak out if pushed.

Consider the following other dots to connect:
-Cheney energy task force, oil execs seeing maps of Iraqi oil fields and the recent "gotcha" moment, wherein those execs lied about all that, courtesy of Sen Lautenberg and the WashPo document revelation.
-Factor in Paul O'Neill's remembrance of the first (cabinet? nsc?) meetings of the administration talking about Iraq.
-Factor in Wolfowitz and Bush, reported to have been zeroing in on Iraq while the embers on Ground Zero were still smoldering, talking about how this was to time to tie Iraq and the rest of the middle east all up together.
-Factor in Wolfowitz talking in Vanity Fair about WMD/Mushroom Cloud being just one of many reasons the administration had developed about going to war.
-And if you want to don your tinfoil, think PNAC. But really, you could just as easily leave them out. There's enough otherwise to paint the picture.

Clearly, we have a group of men who, come hell or high water, intended to first conquer, and then own and occupy Iraq, and would let nothing (nothing!) stand in the way of those goals. No tactic too low, no lie too brazen, nothing else mattered - no matter what, just take Iraq!

Yesterday's tantrum on the Hill is a reflection of the panic they're beginning to feel now that Dems and others are starting to pull on the threads which will unravel all their plans (which remain to this day somewhat murky. oil? protect israel?). The ugliness of the rhetoric is proportional to the fear they feel now that the thing they so covet is in danger.

Yesterday also illustrated something else, once and for all. There are no longer 3 co-equal branches of government. That's broken. The current regime in Congress and the White House are one the same, and to all our collective detriment, there's no any meaningful differentiation btw Bush, Frist, DeLay, Blount, etc. There's just the GOP in Washington, and it is determined to retain Iraq.

Aye aye, Mate! I thinks I smell a troll a clickin in yonder waves...Are y'who y'really claim to be? Or just a troll aimen to divide and conquer? If a troll, might as well go find another fishin spot.

The navy comment's intended for TimMac...

"On another note, for those of you out there, who've asked what the hell does "stay the course mean", I'll tell you. It means, no matter how or why we got into this debacle of the Iraq War in the first place, we have to help the Iraqis successfully establish some sort of reaonable government that's capable of taking care of its people and capable of defending itself against enemies such as Iran. Although I question even today why in the hell we went to Iraq in the first place, we have to support our troops in their endeavors to "stay the course". If we don't and either the President pulls them back or Congress pulls them back premmaturely, then, chaos will very likely ensue leading to a power vacuum or, worse, with a puppet such as Chalabi in power, we might be forced to send thousands of more troops into the Middle East at a later time in order to fight an enemy such as Iran that, empowered by their new found ally and former enemy Iraq, is even a more formidable enemy to us."

I completely disagree. First, as things are now going, if left to their own devices, the Iraqi majority not only has NO NEED to "protect themselves from Iran", they actually seek, and are achieving, a closer alliance with Iran. The numbers alone work in favor of a Shiite theocracy. THE ONLY way for Bush to buck those numbers is to install a puppet government. An electoral process only further cements the Shiite hold on power. There is NO WAY that Israel will abide a Shiite theocracy blossoming imediately next door, nor will the neo-cons look favorably at Iran gaining control of the Iraqi oil fields. The escalation in violence, I believe, is NURTURED by the Israelis and our presence, and is DESIGNED to weaken the present Shiite hold on power. Bremer COMPLETELY BOTCHED the designs that Bush's handlers invisioned for Iraq, and the election results were completely polar to their original plans. Sistani looked behind the curtains, didn't like what he saw, and came out swinging. He out camel-traded these fanatics behind the Bush monkey, and he has effectively blocked the efforts to privatize and sell off the Iraqi assets to foreign investors. The violence you now see is all DESIGNED to de-construct this clusterfuck so the neo-cons can get the whole thing "back on track". "Staying the course", at this point means killing a WHOOOOOLE lot of people, blaming it on the "evil doers" like this made for TV character "Zarqawi", all so we can wrest the reins out of Sistani's hands before an Iranian influence in Iraq becomes irreversable.

There is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY that our troops are coming home anytime soon, because if they do, Bush will have literally DOUBLED the population and the size of IRAN. Bush has to undo this entire God damned mess, and start again from scratch. THATS where the so called "insurgency" comes in. Also, a terrorist attack HERE, that could be shown to have direct ties to the "insurgency" in Iraq would go far to enhance the monkey's ability to pursue this charade further. That is what I believe just happened in Jordan. A false flag black op, that sought to directly implicate the boogie man, Al Qaeda, with the Iraq "insurgency". However, I do not think it worked as well as these bastards had invisioned. The nexrt attack will be HERE, it will be a black op, and it will be a doozy. Logic dictates their next move, and God knows these people are evil enough, have the motivation, and will stop at NOTHING to achieve their goals.

"You got Proof Bush lied? Present the documents. He'll lose support from everyone. If you don't, shut your pie hole!"

Trailers Of Mass Destruction, Part Two..."You remember when [Secretary of State] Colin Powell stood up in front of the world, and he said Iraq has got laboratories, mobile labs to build biological weapons....They're illegal. They're against the United Nations resolutions, and we've so far discovered two.* And we'll find more weapons as time goes on, But for those who say we haven't found the banned manufacturing devices or banned weapons, they're wrong. We found them." (italics ours) --WP, "Bush: 'We Found' Banned Weapons. President Cites Trailers in Iraq as Proof, " May 31, 2003

*At the time of this statement, no such weapons were found, and no such weapons have been found to this day. On this point as well as the use of the captured trailers as biolabs, the WP said this in the above article: "U.S. authorities have to date made no claim of a confirmed finding of an actual nuclear, biological or chemical weapon. In the interview, Bush said weapons had been found, but in elaborating, he mentioned only the trailers, which the CIA has concluded were likely used for production of biological weapons." There was no statement of fact, there was no smoking gun. The CIA's finding was advanced as an opinion based on its own particular process of elimination, and it was immediately challenged by both U.S. and U.K. intelligence analysts who had seen the trailers. --Politex, 08.09.03 (italics ours)

Now comes this..."Engineering experts from the Defense Intelligence Agency have come to believe that the most likely use for two mysterious trailers found in Iraq was to produce hydrogen for weather balloons rather than to make biological weapons, government officials say.

The classified findings by a majority of the engineering experts differ from the view put forward in a white paper made public on May 28 by the C.I.A. and the Defense Intelligence Agency, which said that the trailers were ["likely used"] for making biological weapons....

The State Department's intelligence branch, which was not invited to take part in the initial review, disputed the findings in a memorandum on June 2. The fact that American and British intelligence analysts with direct access to the evidence were disputing the claims included in the C.I.A. white paper was first reported in June, along with the analysts' concern that the evaluation of the mobile units had been marred by a rush to judgment." --NYT, 08.09.03

President Bush, speaking to the nation this month about the need to challenge Saddam Hussein, warned that Iraq has a growing fleet of unmanned aircraft that could be used "for missions targeting the United States."

Last month, asked if there were new and conclusive evidence of Hussein's nuclear weapons capabilities, Bush cited a report by the International Atomic Energy Agency saying the Iraqis were "six months away from developing a weapon." And last week, the president said objections by a labor union to having customs officials wear radiation detectors has the potential to delay the policy "for a long period of time."

All three assertions were powerful arguments for the actions Bush sought. And all three statements were dubious, if not wrong. Further information revealed that the aircraft lack the range to reach the United States; there was no such report by the IAEA; and the customs dispute over the detectors was resolved long ago. --10.22.02, Washington Post

http://bushwatch.com/bushlies.htm

I remember in the Democratic Primary debates, someone incredulously asked Dennis Kucinich how we could possilbly leave Iraq now, after we'd invaded. Mind you, this was when things were bad in Iraq, but a hell of a lot better than they seem to be now.

He said we do as we've always done: Declare Victory, and leave.

I really think that using the term "Cut and Run" is insulting. There are ways to do this responsibly--it can take time, but if we start the process immediately (not end it, mind you, but start it now) lives would be saved.

As for the argument that things would get so bad we'd have to come back later to fight Iran or something--I think that violent conflict with Iran or Syria seems MORE probable with us still so highly engaged, rather than LESS probable. But this is debateable and complex, perfect for a high-level blog, and it's nice that saper aude (see today at 11:50) seems a respectful sort of debater/blog commenter. Wesley Clark has some thoughts on this I know.

If Bush declared Victory, and left those permanent bases we've paid for, I'd be thrilled. That would be victory, in my mind. So what if some think it's a lie. Like Jeanne Schmidt showed on Friday, lying doesn't seem to mean a thing anymore to so many in power now. It's not like the rest of the world believes Bush when he says "We do not torture"...

Who the heck are going to send to Iraq next year or the year after that? Since BushCo and other Rethugs think we have endless supply of young bodies to send to Iraq (alas, not an endless supply of body armor).

What are waiting for? The Iraqis will have to prove they want this "democracy" by fighting for it some point anyway. We defeated the tyrant (Mission Accomplished), and now it's time to hand the country over to those to whom it belongs: Iraqis.

Get our troops out of there and stop building permanent bases. Or we really going to be there forever?

Reading PO'd American's posting it's an interesting coincidence that senior Chinese and Palestinian defense officials were victims of the Jordanian bombing.

Add to that Keith Olberman's report on the correlation of terror alerts and embarrassing Republican incidents which need to be kept out of the news.

I agree with Dee Dee Myers assertion that given a choice between conspiracy and chaos we should pick chaos, but I am beginning to wonder if there are any limits on what people will do to move their political agenda forward.

An American journalist reported Iraqi election fraud so blatant that they have tape of one man openly filling out seven ballots. I doubt any Iraqi believes they will end up with a freely elected government.

With permanent American bases and a puppet regime installed, I don't think any Iraqi will believe we've helped them achieve a new statehood. Which will mean an ongoing and probably growing insurgency and a weak defense.

Only by the US pulling out will the Iraqi people ever believe that they should come together and work for a united Iraq.

They're a 5,000 year old civilization and the idea that they can only make it with American training wheels is both arrogant and absurd.

Sorry to keep posting, but I just watched this great video clip of Rep. Murtha on Chris Matthew's Hardball. He's very convincing. It's clear he wants us 100% out, but not some immediate cut and run.

"Stay the course" is a campaign slogan that was effective for Ronald Reagan, and since the only thing this administration has proved adept at is slash-and-burn PR, I think they think it's something that will resonate with the base and allow them to not have to explain anything.

It's been pointed out, and I believe it, that the administration campaigns rather than governs, and everything boils down to consolidating executive power. What better way to maximize that than by declaring war? Remember the gleeful look on the president's face when he declared, "I'm a wartime president!" There are plenty of principled conservatives out there whose philosophies I disagree with, but can acknowledge that they do have ideas with which they seek to build a better, fairer world. George Bush and the members of his administration seem willing to say whatever it will take to achieve short-term, power-consolidating goals, consequences be damned.

There is no "course." There is only "stay."

Dems should introduce immediately after the recess, a resolution calling for a limit on the amount of tours any soldier can serve in theater in Iraq.

And after that, a resolution calling for the immediate reinstatement of the draft. Who the heck cares if Rummsfeld opposes it. Rummy wanted to invade Iraq with 40,000 troops.

"You have to lie to gain power. Pathetic."

Takes one to know one.

Actually, there's a lot of truth to this. No American politician -- or very few -- dare to oppose the notion of an Empire of Liberty that the US can and should lead.

Pissed Off American, once again you serve your name well. Never more pissed off have you sounded than today. That being said, I respect your insight and your passion.

POA, or any of your compadres who think our only reasonable option is to withdraw, please, answer a few questions.

1. Do the Iraqis have adequate numbers, equipment, and training to sustain themselves? (Last time, I checked the stats, the answer would seem, "No," , and, in contrast to some of the criticism I received in some of the posts, I am not suggesting the Iraqis need our assistance because they are inferior in nature. No, instead I am being practical. You can't defend yourself against much anything if, for example, you have only one battalion with viable armored vehicles and tanks.)
2. Please give me a thoughtful explanation of what will most likely occur in Iraq after we leave? In other words, will there be civil unrest or peace and, if you say civil unrest, what will the Iraqis do to adequately contain that unrest?
3. Although our image around the world is pretty much crap at this time, what does withdrawing our troops tell those who wish to harm us at home? Does it improve our image? If so,please expand. I am interested in hearing a different opinion.(Of course, you can only answer that if you will agree with me to stipulate we do have one or two genuine enemies out there and not all of them are black ops.)
4. Would you have even a slightly different opinion, if suddenly President Bush (and President-in-the shadows Cheney) decided to considerably up the numbers of troops in an effort to better secure the borders, replace Secretary Rumsfeld with someone such as Senator McCain or Sam Nunn, signed the anti-torture bill, encouraged/supported Congress to get to the bottom and ultimately punish those contractors such as Haliburton who've milked the CPA dry, and replaced John Bolton with someone who was determined to improve the UN using not force but instead diplomatic pressure? In other words, although what I've suggested has about as much a chance of happening as pigs flying, do you want to pull the troops because they have failed and the mission's simply impossible, or, because, difficult as the mission is to achieve, our President and various members of his administration have been their own worst enemy and, ultimately, either by negligence or incompetence helped make a seemingly near impossible mission even more so?

In hindsight, I wish Bush had never started this mess. That being said, now, that it's in full swing, we must carefully consider all of the consequences that might occur if we choose to act in one way or the other. Had our public leaders so carefully and deliberately done the same thing a few years ago, we might not be in this mess to begin with, and, although, I respect your passion and find your name somewhat witty, POA, in my humble view, now, is the time for reasonable people such as us to work together to find a solution. Otherwise we are simply part of the problem.

Lastly - and I apologize Steve for posting verbose comment - I greatly disagree that Bush would profit from another domestic terror attack. Perhaps, that's what Karl Rove and Dick Cheney might think, but after the many mistakes this Amdinistration has made, especially after their pathetic response to Hurricane Katrina, it is my opinion that if another incident the likes of 9/11 were to happen, President Bush would be impeached.

"POA, or any of your compadres who think our only reasonable option is to withdraw, please, answer a few questions"

I have not advocated pulling out. I have merely described the situation as I believe it exists. I see no way out of this clusterfuck that does not involve an American military presence. What has to change is the MOTIVE behind that presence. Having had said that, if this was MY clusterfuck to straighten out I would start by the immediate indictment, very openly with ALOT of media exposure, of ALL the major players in the torture scandals, such as Sanchez and Ashcroft. I would then make a very public display of Rumsfeld's immediate firing. I would, during this period, be involving the Sunnis, the Shiites, the kurds, the UN, and the surrounding Arab states in round table discussions into a peaceful resolution of the "insurgency" in Iraq, and I would assume a very out front role in attempting to mediate a resolution to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. One thing is for sure, if this ignorant monkey in the White House wants to resolve ANYTHING in the middle east, he has to shut the hell up and stop sputtering his cowboy inanities and appointing rabid fanatics like Bolton to carry our torches.

And BTW, you aren't going to impeach ANYONE if this monkey calls a "red alert" here, or imposes martial law due to another terrorist attack. I honestly believe you underestimate the lengths these people have already gone to, to say nothing of the lengths they are capable of going to.

Steve, I think you want to say " something that's NOT just an amorphous..." etc. Or am I misreading it?

sapere aude, these questions were not directed towards me, even indirectly I think, but here it goes.

1. I think it is important to determine against what they would have to defend themselves. It seems that we have had three enemies since the end of the invasion. Foreign fighters and local recruits associated with AQ in Iraq, Sunni bathists, and Shi'ite's like Sadr. It seems a certainty that while AQ in Iraq's recruitment pool will dry up that they won't just leave Iraq unless given reason to. Since they have been blowing up Shi'ite mosques, I thinnk that people like Sadr have more than enough reason already to push them out. This will involve lots of violence but nothing rising to the level of a civil war. Alot depends on the motivations behind Sadr's militia. They could be motivated primarily by nationalistic considerations or primarily by religious ones. If the latter than I agree that the Iraqi government will have a problem after we leave and so we need to figure out some way to fix that, either through leaving some troops or trying to put together an international force that doesn't include us. What I think is more likely though is that the mahdi army is motivated more by nationalism than fundamentalist Islam. I know that the very name 'mahdi' and the fact that they are led by a fundamentalist cleric suggests that this is not true, but we have seen such situations before. Ho Chi Minh was pretty clearly more a nationalist than a communist, but presented himself and his organization as a communist revolution from start to finish. If Sadr's people are more nationalistic than fundamentalist then I don't think they will continue an armed resistance, unless it appears that the current government is nothing but a puppet regime for the US. I think something similar goes for the bathists. I think that taking some precautions beforehand and making sure that we respect the sovreignty of Iraq afterward might make it the case that the Iraqi government won't have nearly as much to deal with as we do now.
2. I think I already said what I think might happen.
3. I am not sure what it would do for our reputation. It will make us look like we lost a guerilla war. That probably wont do anything to convince the Chinese that we are likely to lose a war over Taiwan. The only people who it could embolden are people who would fight a guerilla war against us if they fought us. That suggests that some smaller countries might be bolder in taking on some of our smaller allies (since they might trust that we do not have the stomach for an occupation), but I doubt that it would make us look weak enough to attack directly. I think it is almost a certainty that our reputation among those who should be our allies (the West) will improve. But also I don't see how this is a relevant consideration. The primary arguments for getting out are moral ones. Many people are dying. I do not see how protecting our rep could possibly be a reason to stay, given the costs.
4. I would not. Some might, I would not. I do not think that the problem is that we are trying to do a good thing, but screwing up the details. I think that Bush and Co. are trying to do a very bad thing, and screwing up the details. I don't think the war was or is now about the promotion of democracy, I think it is about the promotion of US interests concerning oil, trade and our ability to project power in the region. If they got competent people to do the job, I think it would result in an unjust situation for Iraqi's and a less stable region. This is not a veiw that all share though, and is not essential to the 'troops out now' point.

Is Murthy really more serious than other democrats or republicans? I don't think so. Once a Cheney lover always a Cheney lover. He cares no more for American service people or Iraqis than Bush. The reason he is speaking up now is because public opinion is changing and elections are on the horizon.

Listen very carefully to his statements. He, along with the rest of congress, is not for getting American forces out of the Middle East. He said redeploy. Redeploy American forces to the fourteen enduring military bases in Iraq, and to other military bases spread throughout the Middle East. And use our B52's, our gun ships, our Apache helicopters, our curise missiles, etc. to pulverize the hell out of those Iraqi "terrorist" bastards whenever we get bored or just feel like it.

That's right. Save our precious oil sources. Save our troops and votes. But don't give a damn about killing more innocent victims. Peace will come to the Middle East only when all of our military forces are out. We'll know Murthy is serious when he calls for redeploying all American forces back to The United States and keeping them in The United States. Let American forces defend The United States within our borders. That's what a defensive force is for.

Sapere Aude,

Dare to be wise and answer the question following yours:

"1. Do the Iraqis have adequate numbers, equipment, and training to sustain themselves? "

Who are these Iraqis you are talking about?

but they've been setting his position up as immediate withdrawal.

When actually Murtha's and the Democrats' position is immediate surrender to the terrorists. They have become the party of traitors who have allied themselves with alQaeda in a political war against the Republicans.

Murtha's overt call for troop withdrawal has sparked a debate that needs to happen. In fact, it's long overdue. While it may not actually result in the immediate withdrawal of U.S. forces, it may bring about a much-needed discussion of why we are there and what we are trying to accomplish. And this is where the issue begins to get really, really sticky.

Clearly the Bush administration and, in particular, the neo-conservatives ensconced at the Pentagon, have plans for the military beyond just Iraq. Iraq gives them a central base of operations from which to intimidate and potentially attack surrounding regimes in countries such as Iran and Syria. To bring the troops home would completely unravel their grand plans, and I don't think they're going to give in so easily.

There's no question that Rep. Murtha's points should be well-taken. Either implement a strategy to win the conflict in quick fashion or get the hell out. We didn't do that in Vietnam, and we all know how that turned out.

But I go back to the neo-con agenda, which isn't to win quickly and get out. They have no intentions of leaving the area militarily. In fact, a quagmire, per se, suits their aims as well as anything, along with a President and Vice President who bait their own constituents - the American people - with the "Americans don't run and hide" or "Americans don't give up" propaganda. Consequently, we're forced to remain indefinitely.

We have to come to the realization that this is not, in fact, a war. It is an elaborate mind game. And the neo-cons must control the minds of Americans in order to effect their grand vision for the Middle East... and the world. Even the other key players in the Middle East, notably Saudi Arabia and Israel, know that their respective futures are in doubt without direct U.S. involvement in the region. The attacks of 9/11 happened for a reason. Never underestimate that as the rest of the neo-con agenda unfolds and the mind game continues.

For a man of few words, Murtha took an awful lot longer to make his point than the Republican resolution did. Cut to the chase. Call bullshit, bullshit. Democrat hangwringers are pathetic.

the Iraqi military

And, in defense of Murtha, although he originally supported the war, he's been out there for months criticizing it. He changed his mind about the war a long time ago. To suggest he only came out, now, when it was easier to do so, is purely baseless.

"When actually Murtha's and the Democrats' position is immediate surrender to the terrorists. They have become the party of traitors who have allied themselves with alQaeda in a political war against the Republicans."

Posted by patriot325

Al Qaeda is Bush's private little army of boogie men, created for the express purpose of providing his agenda with a justification.

And if ANYONE has worked to the BENEFIT of radical Islamic factions, it is BUSH. He is their top recruiter. And the loss of freedoms that his so called "war on terror" has imposed on us is a victory for the terrorists as well.

Then we have blathering fools like yourself that think it is "patriotic" to spout the kind of ignorant drivel such as I quoted from you. This clusterfuck in Iraq has NOTHING TO DO WITH TERRORISM. It has to do with a group of inept fanatics that thought they had a grand design to steal the Iraqi oilfields and establish a military stronghold between Israel and its enemies. And they have botched the job miserably.

Under L. Paul Bremer the Third, we disbanded and dismissed the regular Iraqi military. They were Baathist and were, therefore, not to be trusted. This was a mistake of huge proportions which set up the conditions for the present chaos. When we needed help in the north, we used the peshmergas, pitting Kurds against Iraqi Arabs. This did not help the cause of democracy in Iraq. And then, the establishment of a transitional government and the writing and ratification of a constitution for the further development of the government were irreparably compromised, as a consequence of the increasing pressure from the growing insurgency which we fostered and fueled with the initial disbanding of the regular army.

But let's not forget all the other spanners we threw in the works, just for fun: the failure to provide oversight of reconstruction contracts, the hiring of ex-felons to handle redevelopment projects, the appointment of blustering, ignorant Bernard Kerik to set up the Iraqi police, the lack of oversight of mercenaries and private security forces which lead, among other things, to the sorts of reckless behavior that precipitated the horror of Fallujah.

Hey, Steve (Clemons),POA, and the rest of your compadres, if you aren't pissed off already, you will certainly be pissed after you read James Bamford's new article for Rolling Stone magazine. I almost fell off my seat when I started reading it. Bamford is a credible journalist. I only hope he's got someone watching his back. Maybe he can get a referral for a security guard from Colonel Wilkerson. Damn,after reading it, I think I'm going to vomit. I've never been so depressed.
Here's the address: http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=12819.

"But let's not forget all the other spanners we threw in the works, just for fun: the failure to provide oversight of reconstruction contracts, the hiring of ex-felons to handle redevelopment projects, the appointment of blustering, ignorant Bernard Kerik to set up the Iraqi police, the lack of oversight of mercenaries and private security forces which lead, among other things, to the sorts of reckless behavior that precipitated the horror of Fallujah."

Posted by Aunt Deb

Golly Deb, you forgot the part about failing to protect and secure the weapons depots, which resulted in countless tons of explosives disappearing into the hands of who knows who.

"Hey, Steve (Clemons),POA, and the rest of your compadres.........."

A clarification here. Clemons, and myself, have NEVER exchanged comments on this blog or anywhere else. My assumption is that my rhetoric is too blunt for Steve, and perhaps woeefully simplistic because of my inability to tap the full range of sources he does. I DO NOT presume to be a "compadre" of Steve Clemons. Nor should my comments on his blog imply a melding of our opinions. Steve can speak for himself, quite well, obviously, and I am just a poster here. Period. Please do not presume intellectual or ideological alliances where non exist. My bet is that Steve would prefer that I never landed here.

Sapere Aude....

Along the same lines....

The LA Times stops carrying Scheer's column, yet days later prints a 13 page expose' such as I linked to. I don't trust the LA Times anymore, and have cancelled my subscription. Really, it appears to me that this article is just another attempt to plant the blame for this clusterfuck in Iraq on the CIA. But when one reads the article that Sapere Aude supplied, one sees, as many of us saw from the beginning, that the Cheney Cabal did not want ACCURATE intelligence, they wanted HELPFUL intelligence. And if the intelligence did not fit their needs, it was discarded.

Oooooops. Sorry, heres the address.....

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-curveball20nov20,1,4140621.story?coll=la-headlines-nation&ctrack=1&cset=true

Murtha didn't arrive at his conclusions by reading blogs, attending A List dinner parties, or talking to political spinmeisters.

Murtha - unlike anyone in the Bush Admin, BTW - visits soldiers and soldiers families constantly. He goes to Walter Reed every week. He's in touch with commanders in the Pentagon; the ones who are actually keeping an eye on what's going on in Iraq, the ones actually implementing strategies.

Murtha is, in other words, talking to people the White House won't listen to: the ones actually doing the fighting.

So when he says our current war plan is unsustainable and doomed, he a) knows what he's talking about; and b) is speaking for people the Bush Admin and the GOP ignore.

Those who attack Murtha have no clear facts and figures, no clear strategy, and no real understanding of the issue. All they have is loyalty to Bush and their own twisted fantasies of conquest. That trumps everything else, including American national security, American values, and even human decency.

The number of Bush supporters is quickly being reduced to foul, scurrilous, sadistic, anti-American pissants.

Since the number of troops will be down (WAY down) by OUR election day in NOV2006, I have to wonder what is the difference between what will happend then and what Murtha is recomending. AND since commanders on the ground have already predicted significant reductions in force for 2006 why isn't that giving the terrorist hope, embolding the enemy, etc. etc like Murtha.

Also it's worth remembering that Murtha didn't reach his conclusion alone. That ole Bull has some pals at the Pentagon (eithr current or retired) who helped him put it together.

the discussion of troop levels by congressmen on the left and the right gettin ridiculous. If the GOP is insulted by Murtha's request then they shoud pretent it's not a request but a very good prediction of what the GOP will do next year when they reduce troop levels in Iraq in order to save their own backsides.

I'd like to hear Mike's opinon on this...on the specific: Does he think troop levels reduce next year and the commanders on the ground in IRaq are predicting? And if so will it be and act that gives hope to terrorist? To those two specifics and answer please.

"I'd like to hear Mike's opinon on this...on the specific: Does he think troop levels reduce next year and the commanders on the ground in IRaq are predicting? And if so will it be and act that gives hope to terrorist? To those two specifics and answer please."
Posted by Charles

All of you seem to make predictions based on the CURRENT state of affairs. This Administration CREATES the situations and events that justify policy. Instead of constructing policy around situations and events, they construct situations and events to fit pre-ordained policy. Imagine an alledged Syrian incursion into Iraq that results in the deaths of 120 American GIs. Under such a scenario, can you imagine ANYONE in Washington being an advocate of troop reduction? Again, I think there is, across the board, an underestimation of the lengths these people will go to to pursue policy. Surely, by now, most here must realize this boondoggle in Iraq was misrepresented in every way, but foremost in MOTIVE. The current Administration does not have American interests at heart, theirs is a GLOBAL AGENDA, pursued in the interests of GLOBAL MULTI-NATIONAL INTERESTS. It seems that debate, from both sides, always shares the misguided foundation that their argument arises from a common interest, that being the welfare of our nation. But it is MY belief that the "welfare of our nation" is NOT the foundation upon which current policies are being constructed upon.

Back to my point. If the Cheney abomination and his pet monkey want to maintain or increase troop levels in Iraq, they will simply CREATE the situations or events that justify it, then proceed to villify and demonize any "anti-american" efforts to question the events or the policies.

Sapere Aude --- agree, quite unbelieveable. For u and others who have read the Bamford article, what constructive actions must we take to rid this behavior from our government, wherever it exists?

Might the New America Foundation host a brown bag lunch with Rendon as guest speaker?

What about that Steve?

The earlier post by "sapere_aude" was correct about the Rolling Stone article about John Rendon, aka The Man Who Sold the War. It's a must read for all to see just how the Bush administration and the Pentagon utilized deception to sell the war to all necessary stakeholders.

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/_/id/8798997?pageid=rs.Home&pageregion=single7

Is it a war or a mind game? You be the judge. I think most of us already know the answer. This article appears to confirm it.

Steve, are you going to Cheney's AEI speech on Monday?

The Lions of Winter

The Republican members of the House of Representatives may have created their own Waterloo yesterday. Forcing a vote on a Resolution for immediate withdrawal from Iraq, with out any formal committee process, evidenced a political stunt and disappointing display of immaturity for a serious matter facing the United States.

They reacted, in my opinion, like frightened kids on the play ground, and not members of Congress with great powers and responsibilities under the war powers act. It was the old lions (Bill Young, John Murtha Curt Weldon) in the House who showed the way to debate and discuss, and left the little ones who can only fight by inflamed rhetoric and scare tactics looking like fools to the whole world. Read the transcript. (www.cspan.org)

Their shallow and partisan attempt to back down Representative Murtha was a shameful display, and all who devised this outrageous behavior should be held accountable at the polls next year.

The Republicans, may well have done what the Democrats have been unable to do, and nationalize the elections for the House and Senate in 2006. Only time will tell, but their behavior deserves our careful attention and rebuke at the polls next November.

Don't forget, during this same day, they voted major cuts in domestic programs, attempted to embarrass a major war hero/ distinguished member of Congress, and VOTED THEMSELVES A PAY RAISE. Quite a day. As the President told Brownie - - Speaker Hasterett (Denny, you're doing a heck of a job).

Here's a video of the McGlaughlin group--summarizes :

General Odom's 9 Reasons to Leave Iraq

Makes sense to me.

I respect the 3 democrats who voted yes. The others who've been calling for a pull out were caught with their pants down.

As for Murtha, where exactly would that OTH force of Marines go? Saudi? NO, they don't want troops there because of their own al Qaeda problems. Not enough room in Qatar, UAE and Bahrain. Obviously not Isreal, and Turkey is probably a no go also.

So the "quick reaction" force would end up in either Germany, or here in the states. That would be some quick reaction.

Crazy, go read Murtha's resolution. You obviously are confusing the silly Republican resolution that almost no one supports with the nuanced and constructive resolution put forth by Mr Murtha. Murtha was trying to get a serious discussion of a serious issue. The Republican leadership put on a clown show. We have a failure brewing in Iraq and a President that refuses to listen to well intended advice. By politicizing the Iraq War and Iraq policy, the Republicans are failing our troops.

"If the Cheney abomination and his pet monkey want to maintain or increase troop levels in Iraq, they will simply CREATE the situations or events that justify it, then proceed to villify and demonize any "anti-american" efforts to question the events or the policies."

But they can't create the troops to fight that scenario. Disaster would (and will) ensue.

The weakness in any stay the course rhetoric is that it is all rhetoric and no substance. The Iraq war is being "run" by the same people who "ran" the response to Hurricane Katrina, and when the inevitable, obvious, but constantly denied disaster strikes, it will be the Hurricane Katrina episode of US military history. Kind of like the Bataan death march only bigger.

TO: Pissed off American

I agree. The Administration does not develop policy based on events. But I do think they develop policy based on elections--not Iraq elections---their elections. Their own elections appears to be pretty much the only thing they care about.

Capitalism Poses A Direct and Immediate Danger to All Life on Earth!
The Runaway Greenhouse Effect Has Already Begun!

Prior to the analysis of Social Security and other issues and in order to put the threat to Social Security in context as part of the economic war directed by the capitalist dictatorship against the masses, it is imperative that we briefly document an even greater threat. The Runaway Greenhouse Effect has already begun. This is no joke and is not something which might occur in the distant future. It is no longer simply Global Warming that we have to contend with but the beginning of the Runaway Greenhouse Effect. Professional climatologists risk losing their jobs if they reveal the rapidly approaching reality. The vast majority of them must lie to keep their jobs! Nevertheless, according to the latest published results in the British Guardian, which were just blipped in the media, for the last 3 years the CO2 level for the first time has begun to rise in an accelerated fashion indicating that a Runaway Greenhouse Effect has already begun. Ethical and Honest (bucking the trend!) scientists, at Hawaii’s Mauna Loa Observatory reported that average CO2 levels increased by 2.08 ppm in 2002, to 373.1 ppm, and by 2.54 ppm in 2003, to an average of 375.64 ppm. This is the first recorded example of the average CO2 level jumping more than 2 ppm in two consecutive years. See: British Guardian, Oct 11, 2004. It became three consecutive years in 2005 when the Associated Press reported on March 20th that scientists at Mauna Loa Observatory had recorded the atmospheric CO2 level peaked at a record of 379 ppm! The apparent significance of this newly observed increase in atmospheric CO2 levels is that the CO2 reservoirs, namely the rain forests and oceans, are now exhausted and from this point on the atmospheric CO2 level will start to increase in an exponential fashion.

U.S.-led world capitalism-imperialism is controlled by the oil industry and the military industrial complex and cannot reform itself. Real reform would include: 1.) Beginning to introduce alternative energy sources like Tidal Power and certain large hydroelectric sources such as the world’s largest waterfalls and on a large scale to the degree where fossil fuels no longer supply the majority of the power for residential and business needs and the world’s dependency on fossil fuels actually ends and 2.) Ending completely the deforestation and destruction of the rainforests which trap much of the Earth’s CO2 in vegetation and planting new forests. China, a Workers’ State, based on human need not private profit, has led the world and reversed Asia’s net loss of 3000 square miles a year of forests from the 1990’2 to a net gain of 4000 square miles since 2000. But the capitalists can do nothing to reverse the situation. This is because of the internal dynamic of capitalism, which is independent of the wills of the individual capitalists and politicians which make it up. They are powerless. The system controls the capitalists; the capitalists do not control the system. Capitalism generates the scum and the scoundrels such as Bush, Cheney, Wolfowitz, the Clintons, Bloomberg, Ferrer, etc. Capitalism cannot be reformed through elections or in any other way. In fact today the word “reform” is simply a nebulous sounding codeword, like Gorbachev’s “Perestroika,” generally used by the capitalists with the understood meaning an attack on the working class, middle-income earners and the poor. So-called “Social Security Reform” is just one example. It is absolutely vital that we establish a new economic-political-social system based on human need not private profit. That system is Socialism and it cannot be “elected” under capitalism. That can only come about through Socialist Revolution. Today the main topic of conversation among progressive people must be the technical means of achieving a Socialist Revolution in the United States. See below.

Capitalism Cannot Reverse Fossil Fuels Global Warming nor
The Runaway Greenhouse Effect Which Has Now Begun!

The most important potential alternative power is tidal power from the oceans and hydroelectric power from huge waterfalls such as the Kaiture Falls in Guyana with a total drop of 822 feet (5 times the drop of Niagara Falls) and Victoria Falls in Africa. The Niagara Falls Region is the largest producer of hydro-electric power in the world. Half of the flow of the St. Lawrence River is diverted by Canada and the U.S. for hydroelectric power, to complaints from those who might prefer to see nuclear power plants (!) or no plants at all—the reactionary anti-technology movement. While there has been some hydroelectric power development of Victoria Falls by Zambia the oil industry has suppressed hydroelectric power development of Kaieture Falls. Instead of development of such alternative sources of energy the capitalists are calling for more fossil fuel development and pushing nuclear power once again which permanently pollutes the environment. The so-called “environmental groups” such as the Greens and Greenpeace, etc., which are part of the group of government-controlled fake “opposition” single-issue groups are also suppressing this information. Nevertheless, a few tidal power plants already exist in England, France, the former USSR and China. More must be built rapidly in all countries in the Northern and Southern Hemispheres which have tides. The Kaiture Falls alone has been estimated to be able to produce enough energy to supply all industrial and residential needs of North America and South America combined! And Victoria Falls in Africa is the largest waterfalls in the world! Both are completely ignored by the capitalists because of the threat to the oil industry. The Runaway Greenhouse Effect has already occurred on Venus where all the CO2 is found in the 932 degree Fahrenheit (500 degrees Centigrade) atmosphere. The water in the oceans of Venus all evaporated because of the heat generated by 30% more sunlight Venus receives than on Earth. Once in the upper atmosphere ultraviolet radiation broke the H20 apart into hydrogen, which disappeared into space and oxygen which reacted with minerals on the surface and disappeared from the atmosphere. But Venus, which lost all the water from its oceans, which were nearly the size of the oceans on Earth, and where life did not evolve with the consequence that there was no plant life, was unable to absorb the gradual build-up of CO2 from volcanos, which eventually formed the thick CO2 atmosphere which exists on Venus. On Earth the source of the CO2 is obviously the fossil fuels. Without a Socialist Revolution here in the United States that is the future of the Earth.

Runaway Greenhouse Effect means just what it says! Feedbacks have already begun to kick in which constantly accelerate it. For example, because the Polar Ice Cap has virtually all melted there is a lot less white ice which used to reflect the sun’s rays back into space.The ocean water which has taken the place of the polar ice is much darker and absorbs much more heat from the sun, according to recent front page reports in the New York Times. French TV News recently reported scientists’ observation that the droughts, which have occurred during the summer months for the last several years have substantially decreased the amount of vegetation in France and Europe. Vegetation binds CO2 and removes it from the atmosphere. But the capitalists simply lie about the extent of the disaster or deny it and pretend to go through the motions of dealing with it, because capitalism simply cannot deal with it. Articles are written expressly to disavow the truth and to keep the masses confused. For example, an article in the New York Times, Nov 2, 2005 entitled: “Climate Study Warns of Warming and Losses of Arctic Tundra,” cites an article in the co-called “The Journal of Climate.” The authors, from the Carnegie Institution and Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, the leading center for the development of the crazed First-Strike Star Wars weapons systems under Reagan, and now Bush, hide the actual atmospheric CO2 levels and present a deliberately false admittedly “simulated study” where “the CO2 level rises about 0.45 % a year through 2300,” then the authors falsely acknowledge (!?) that value is “slightly less than the current rate, about 0.5 % (!).” Which is another Big Lie! As if the above-reported values in the British Guardian, which documents that for the last 3 years the CO2 in the atmospheric has no longer been increasing additively but is now beginning to increase exponentially, simply do not exist! The article concludes with the deliberately disingenuous Earth shaking observation: “The question is no longer whether we will need to address this problem, but when we will have to address the problem.” (Gosh, do you think so, really?) This fraudulent (cover-up) “finding” supports the policy of the capitalists’ regime to do nothing, and once again represents the destructive driving force of the dynamic of the capitalist system itself.

The recent hurricanes such as Katrina, Rita and Wilma are just the beginning. The situation will arise in the not too distant future where the southern coast of the United States becomes basically uninhabitable. One quarter of U.S. imports and exports pass through the Gulf States and one quarter of oil refining has also taken place in the Gulf States, to say nothing of the drilling for oil in the Gulf of Mexico. The capitalists’ response to the renewed focus on “Global Warming” after these hurricanes has been front page articles in the New York Times which point to the loss of ice cover in the Arctic and Greenland and bizarrely shout: “Hurray, the silver lining of the Global Warming is that it makes it possible to begin drilling for oil full scale in the Arctic!” Isn’t that great? In addition, the capitalists have used these recent hurricane disasters as the pretext to cut social programs and escalate the economic war against their own domestic population on the fraudulent slogan of “shared sacrifice!” The capitalists’ objective as described below in more detail is to reduce the world’s population overall by bringing people to an earlier death by any means necessary. This Fascist policy, known as Social Darwinism, is being implemented worldwide as the capitalists’ answer to what they consider the population explosion, and includes primarily economic warfare and biological warfare.

AIDS, SARS and H5N1 Avian Flu are all U.S. Bio-Warfare
Weapons being used for Population Reduction!

U.S.-led world Capitalism-Imperialism is fundamentally based on war and mass murder to steal new resources and new markets. The U.S. government is controlled and run by the military industrial complex and the oil industry and naturally approaches all problems from this perspective. AIDS is documented to be Bio-warfare by the U.S. government, and other cooperating governments, directed primarily against People of Color, Gays and those with blood clotting disorders deemed to be genetic liabilities for the human species. (See 1986 AIDS Poster and 1987 AIDS newspaper and other documentation published by the United Front Against Racism and Capitalism-Imperialism.) The AIDS virus is actually the Icelandic Sheep virus, known as the Visna-Maedi Lentivirus, which has been adapted to the human T4 helper lymphocyte through standard cell culture techniques. The AIDS virus should never be referred to as “HIV” because AIDS is not a human virus! AIDS is a Bioweapon designed by the United States government with assistance from the French during the 1970’s. From its origin in sheep and goats it was then passed through bovine species before finally adapting it to humans in the 1970’s. This is documented by comparing the genomes of the 3 viruses. Lentiviruses are found only in ungulates (hoofed animals) and are found in no primate species normally in nature, which can easily be confirmed by books on viral taxonomy published before 1980, after which they were all rewritten by the Bio-Warfare criminals. The number one Bio-Warfare criminal of the United States, Anthony Fauci, has even been installed as the Editor of Harrison’s Textbook of Internal Medicine(!), the multi-authored bible of Internal Medicine, in order to censor anything which might conflict with the U.S. Government’s concocted Big Lies about AIDS and assorted garden variety lies involving diagnosis and treatment in many other areas of medicine. The U.S. government has prevented development of an AIDS vaccine because it permits work to be carried out on vaccines which use the AIDS envelope lipoprotein and refuse any funding of an AIDS vaccine which utilizes the viral RNA itself, under the pretext that the vaccine might infect people. This is despite the fact that deleting the SOR gene makes it impossible for the virus to replicate and would permit use of all of the AIDS RNA in the vaccine minus the SOR gene. This would make an extremely effective vaccine but BioWarfare Criminal Anthony Fauci, et al. does not permit that to occur. SARS is also a Bio-warfare agent but the capitalists stopped with SARS because the Peoples’ Republic of China, one of the capitalists’ main targets, demonstrated that it could be completely neutralized through quarantine.

China’s announcement in the New York Times, November 16, 2005, that it will begin vaccinating all 5.2 billion, chicken, ducks, geese and turkeys against the H5N1 Bird Flu may seriously complicate the United States plans to release their human-to-human H5N1 reassortment virus in China (See below!), where the U.S. has been frustrated in its previous attempt with its SARS Bioweapon to reduce China’s population! If Chinese poultry is all vaccinated there will be no credibility whatsoever to any U.S. claim the H5N1 Bird Flu has “jumped species in China” if then a human-to-human strain suddenly “breaks out” of nowhere! There would be no sick birds for the human-to-human strain to have “jumped species” from. Many people will smell a rat! Not a bird! Not only that—if China demonstrates that it can vaccinate 5.2 billion birds it is obvious that they can easily vaccinate all of their 1.4 billion citizens with the vaccine they are now developing for a human-to-human strain! And it would also be in China’s interest to offer both their bird and human vaccines and their manufacturing technology to neighboring countries or any other country which requested it once their own population was vaccinated or even simultaneously while vaccinating their own birds and citizens.

According to the above New York Times report in 2004 there were 50 outbreaks of H5N1 Bird Flu in birds in 16 Chinese provinces, with 11 more outbreaks peaking this autumn, concentrated in and around Liaoning Province. The unusual cluster of cases in birds in Liaoning Province the Chinese have attributed to “fake flu vaccine which (was contaminated) with active virus.” It sounds very much like the batches of bird flu vaccine used at that location were indeed deliberately contaminated by our old friends from Fort Detrick and Co., who have penetrated the so-called World Health Organization for decades and would be able to accomplish this with no problem! After all the WHO and NGOs were also evidently instrumental in initiating the AIDS epidemic in the Chinese countryside which was later blamed on poor farmers selling their blood to make ends meet, which certainly may have occurred. But the AIDS virus didn’t just come from nowhere! According to the Times report the Chinese vaccine is normally nearly 100% effective in birds, so deliberate sabotage sounds most likely. The Americans have the only motive. Why? Up until the 2 to possible 3 human cases of Bird Flu just reported in the November 16th Times there have been no cases of Bird Flu in humans reported in China. Most of the outbreaks in Asia of H5N1 Bird Flu in humans have been in Vietnam, 92 out of the 128 cases reported last year with 42 fatalities. Without any reported human cases of Bird Flu it would have required an act of faith to believe that a human-to-human strain could suddenly emerge in China.

The New York Times article which appeared the very next day, Nov 17, 2005, tried to make a case that since 2 human cases of Bird Flu were a brother and a sister, where the sister died, there was supposedly a greater likelihood that one of them was a case of human-to-human transmission.(?) But that is highly unlikely and the writer knows it is highly unlikely. The reason is much more likely to be that both of them had a greater familial susceptibility to developing the symptoms, because millions of Chinese already have antibodies to the H5N1 Bird Flu virus but never have never gone on to develop any sort of symptoms!! That is the reason the capitalists are working around the clock at the CDC to develop the most maximally virulent human-to-human Bird Flu Reassortment Strain (See below), which they will need to set the World Pandemic in motion. We will be able to see it just before the capitalists unleash it because they will start to announce that they have proof of human-to-human transmission. If they really do have proof then it could only be their Reassortment Strain being presently developed at the CDC. When the Pandemic Virus is later sequenced and found to have the same sequence as the U.S. H5N1 Reassortment Virus now being developed, the Americans will falsely attribute that not to coincidence but rather to natural “inevitable mutation” in the H5N1 Bird-to-Human transmission to human-to-human transmission. Such mutation is not “inevitable.” Not all Bird Flu viruses go on to cause Global Pandemics in humans with the mortality rates as high as the 1918 Spanish Flu Pandemic or the mortality of that tiny percentage of humans who have developed symptoms from the H5N1 Bird Flu virus! That’s why they are working overtime at the CDC to develop a highly lethal strain of the H5N1 virus. The fact that China has started to vaccinate their poultry against H5N1 Bird Flu may tip the U.S. government’s hand to move fast to release their Global Pandemic very soon before China vaccinates their birds and the pretext for a Global Pandemic disappears because there are no more infected birds, who would be the putative source of such a mutation! Alternatively the capitalists may decide to release it in Vietnam, Thailand, Indonesia, or Cambodia. But they definitely intend to release it!

The United States Government is Openly Preparing a
Worldwide Bio-Warfare Influenza Pandemic in order to Help
Reduce the Population Through a Program of Covert Mass Murder
And Has Announced They Have a Vaccine to Protect Themselves!

The capitalists are presently in the process of creating and unleashing either or both: 1.) The more recently publicized H5N1 Avian Flu or 2.) The Reconstructed 1918 Spanish Flu as a World Pandemic, by first falsely conditioning the entire world to believe that a bird flu pandemic which would kill hundreds of millions of people is inevitable naturally! This is a Big Lie! See below. A World Flu Pandemic is inevitable but only because U.S.-led world capitalism-imperialism has decided to unleash one! The1918 influenza pandemic killed 40-50 million people worldwide including an estimated 675,000 in the United States. This mortality rate is not nearly as lethal as the H5N1 Avian Flu which normally kills 52% (or nearly 70% depending on the report) of those who develop symptoms after being infected by birds. (This is a very important distinction which is discussed below.)

Despite all the preparation for the H5N1 Avian Flu virus the United States government’s Bio-Warfare Department has nevertheless also decided to prepare to utilize the 1918 flu virus as a Bio-Warfare weapon against its own people and the entire world because of its unusually high death rate in 1918 among healthy adults aged 15 to 34 years, which consequently lowered the average life expectancy in the United States at that time by more than 10 years! Is this an almost made to order bioweapon or what? What’s not to like??? A similarly high death rate has not occurred in this age group in influenza A pandemics or epidemics prior to or subsequent to the 1918 Pandemic according to America’s Forgotten Pandemic by Alfred W. Crosby, Cambridge University Press 1989. Since the average life span in 1918 was not nearly as high as today the U.S.-led Bio-Warfare criminals clearly aspire to achieve a far higher kill quotient today with greatly increased dispersal of the virus by travel both nationally and internationally. With that objective in mind the United States Department of Bio-Warfare has already dug up and completely sequenced, published and reconstructed the 1918 Spanish Flu virus! This is an act of war against the entire world!

Because the recently announced Chinese preparations which include: 1.) Vaccinating all of their 5.2 billion poultry and also 2.) Developing a Bird Flu Vaccine for humans will largely stymie such a Pandemic which utilizes the H5N1 Bioweapon, the Americans may choose to go with their Reconstructed 1918 Spanish Flu virus Bioweapon instead, or as a follow-up after giving it the old college try with the H5N1. The Reconstructed 1918 virus is extremely virulent! In a paper in Science, Vol. 310, October 7, 2005, BioWarfare criminals Terrence M. Tumpey et al., first used their reconstructed strain to infect mice. After 4 days the virus had generated 39,000 times more virus particles in the animals lungs than were generated by infection with a modern influenza strain called the Texas virus. When Tumpey et al. infected human lung cells with the 1918 virus 50 times more virus particles were released after one day as were released after exposure to the Texas virus. Thirteen percent of mouse body weight was lost 2 days after infection with the 1918 virus, while weight loss was only transient in mice infected with the Texas virus. All the mice died within 6 days of infection with the 1918 virus. None died from the Texas virus!

The Capitalists Carry Out Bio-Warfare Openly Today
Under the False Cover of “Biodefense!”

The U.S. Bio-Warfare Department, which formally has its center at Fort Detrick in Frederick, Maryland is now spread out around the world with its work carried out for the most part completely openly with such false pretexts as “investigative research” and “biodefense activities,”(!?) with the bizarre claim that “(developing Bioweapons!) is important for public health(!) and is conducted safely”(!) and is being carried out “where the benefits clearly outweigh the risks.”(!) Benefits? Risks!? Hah! A credulous, brainwashed, deliberately divided and deliberately misled public, through no fault of its own, still thinks merely in terms of risks unfortunately and cannot conceive that they themselves are in the crosshairs of a government which is not theirs and cannot ever be theirs because it is a capitalist dictatorship not a workers’ dictatorship, which will abolish class society and sets the stage finally for a genuine democracy. Sheepish naiveté in this period of increasing reaction allows the bulk of today’s Bio-Warfare research to be carried out without the requirement which exists at the Fort Detrick Bio-Warfare Center: that all personnel who work on Bio-Warfare projects must know the actual objectives of the research and are thus required to be brought into confidence and agree with the actual objectives of research—how to develop the most effective Bio-Warfare agents which will kill the most people, or target primarily People of Color, e.g. such as AIDS. In addition to the Fort Detrick Bio-Warfare Center, 2 key U.S. Bio-Warfare sites are located within the National Institutes of Infectious Disease run by Anthony Fauci and the Centers For Disease Control run by Julie Gerberding. In Europe the Pasteur Institute has been the premier Bio-Warfare center.

By carrying out the actual design of biological weapons openly the capitalists are able to 1.) Completely deny that they even engage in biological warfare (!) and 2.) Enlist the services of a much greater number of differently motivated researchers at multiple research centers. Today’s Bio-warfare crimes are so incredibly destructive and heinous and dangerous to all life on Earth that most top scientists will simply not go along with them. But if they are led to believe that they are working on something else then they are much easier to manipulate and control and are not that great a threat to the “national security” of the U.S. capitalist dictatorship, which is what that phrase actually means. Several score well-known and not so well-known microbiologists and other weapons-connected scientists have been assassinated from the 1980’s to the present, undoubtedly because they knew too much or they were politically opposed to the government and had a history of speaking out. (See http://rense.com/general62/list.htm and http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/deadbiologists.html. (Websites such as these actually cover up the material presented here and its significance because they are run by the anti-Communist fake “opposition,” and while they do contain a certain amount of straw man disinformation (easily disproved claims which are deliberately attached to central information which is true in order to discredit the true information and its significance) these sites do provide important factual material which can be very useful. Dialectical and Historical Materialist analysis plus experience enable one to recognize the disinformation.)

The Capitalist Openly Admit to Creating
the Most Virulent Avian Flu Virus Possible!

The capitalist Bio-Warfare criminals at the Orwellian Newspeak-named Center For Disease Control (?!) in Atlanta openly admit in an extremely detailed report in the Wall Street Journal, March 23, 2005, Page B1, entitled “CDC Aims to Create Experimental Pandemic Bird-Flu Virus,” that they are creating an Avian Flu virus which will spread from human to human as easily as from bird to bird! Using the H5N1 Avian Flu virus as their prototype the U.S. government reports that they have begun to design what is known as a reassortant virus by systematically:

“swapping genes of an H5N1 avian virus with the genes of an H3N2 virus, the strain behind the most recent flu outbreaks…Over the next six months, CDC scientists plan to substitute the eight genes of each virus one by one with the eight genes from the other virus in order to see which of more than 250 possible combinations create viable viruses. They will then incubate the viruses in canine tissue cells to see how well they grow. Eventually, the viruses which thrive in tissue culture will be tested in animals. Similar experiments are planned for later this year at Erasmus University, another major influenza-research center in Rotterdam in the Netherlands.”

The Bio-Warfare Criminal directly in charge of this operation at the CDC, Nancy Cox, says she is searching “to find some gene combinations (which) work well together” and “We’re really hoping that by switching genes out one by one we’ll see which genes or gene combinations confer lethality.”(!) These are her exact words! (We can’t wait!) Cox who fully understands that her objective is to create the virus which will be used in the Global Pandemic, falsely justifies this open quest to design the most lethal H5N1 Avian Flu strain possible in the shortest amount of time by the method described above with the disingenuous clumsy lie: “This will help us assess the pandemic risk.”(!) Oh, yes, yes! This is an example of a Big Lie which is carefully calculated to result in the mass murder of hundreds of millions of people.

The reason that the Bio-Warfare Criminals at the CDC are carrying out these experiments to create a maximally lethal reassortment virus is because studies of serum collected in 1992 in China, carried out by Peter Palese of the Mount Sinai School of Medicine, document that millions of people in China have antibodies to the H5N1 strain of bird flu, meaning they have been infected and have recovered without incident, according to the article in the New York Times, November 5, 2005. This means that the H5N1 Avian Flu Virus regularly infects humans in addition to birds but does not cause disease in humans normally except in a tiny number of cases where the death rate is very high! In other words the capitalist Bio-Warfare Criminals cannot depend on the H5N1 Avian Flu Virus to evolve on its own into a lethally efficient bioweapon by simultaneously infecting humans at the same time that humans are infected with another conventional influenza virus, because that does not and can not occur naturally under any circumstances! (This does not mean that influenza viruses do not evolve!) Every physician and microbiologist knows that a person or an animal cannot be infected with 2 different cold viruses or 2 different influenza viruses simultaneously!

The reason that capitalists’ explanation is false and completely impossible is that the first virus causes the body’s cells to produce interferon which prevents infection by a second virus! Proof of this beyond a shadow of a doubt is the indisputable fact that millions of people in China have antibodies to the H5N1 Avian Flu Virus which has been around China since it appeared in Hong Kong in1997! It is inconceivable that during that time that the H5N1 Avian Flu Virus would not have infected hundreds of thousands if not millions of people who were already infected with a conventional influenza virus, or vice versa, if either were possible—which they are not! The “result” of such a high number of such putative simultaneous infections would surely have led to evolution of a highly lethal reassortment strain of the H5N1 Avian Flu Virus which would have then gone on to kill millions of people in China and worldwide! Nothing of the kind has happened! Nor will it naturally! What has happened is that the so-called World Health Organization has pressured countries in the Far East to mass murder (“cull”) millions of birds in order to foment world hysteria and to condition the masses to expect a World Bird Flu Pandemic as Inevitable! The H5N1 Avian Flu Virus does not even kill most birds it infects! But the mass murder of the birds (culling) has also given the false impression that H5N1 kills most birds it infects, which it does not! And it is killed by cooking! Meanwhile the capitalists are cooking up a maximally lethal H5N1 Avian Flu Reassortment Virus in the laboratory at the CDC precisely as they themselves describe above in order to create a World Pandemic thereby reducing the world’s population through Covert Mass Murder! And they also have the highly virulent Reconstructed 1918 Spanish Flu virus ready to go right now! Please note: the capitalists’ move to abolish the function of Social Security and the other social programs in the U.S. and even public education for the masses has the very same objective as their biological warfare—to bring an increasing number of people to an early death. This is the way the capitalists solve the so-called “demographic problem of overpopulation.” A correct approach to overpopulation which does not involve mass murder will be discussed below.

The Capitalist Bio-Warfare Criminals Have Already Designed a Vaccine
to Protect Themselves From Their Planned World Pandemic!

While working to develop their Pandemic Virus the capitalists simultaneously have indeed developed an “Avian Flu Vaccine Called Effective in Human Testing,” as reported in The New York Times, August 7, 2005. That Times article, written by Lawrence K. Altman, M.D., one of the media hack professional liars who had previously covered up the AIDS BioWarfare since the 1980’s and later the SARS BioWarfare, reported the breakthrough which had been reached and promised “Months Until It’s Offered to Public—Caution on Meeting Demand.” This was to put to rest the concerns of the select few who will receive it: primarily the capitalists themselves and those who directly serve them, and made it clear that it was not for the masses, a high percentage of which are to be exterminated. Then on November 16, 2005 an article in the New York Times claimed the exact opposite: “There is no human vaccine against bird flu because it is impossible to predict the form the virus will take it develops the capacity for human to human transmission.” This was to keep people confused, demoralized and to lower their expectation that they might receive a vaccine to protect them from the inevitable Bird Flu Pandemic. Instead the government and its media are making a big deal of getting vaccinated against regular flu. This is done to make people falsely think that a regular flu vaccine might provide a measure of protection against either the H5N1 Bird Flu or the Reconstructed 1918 Spanish Flu, which is a Big Lie, when actually they are being set up as targets in the U.S. government’s threatened World Bird Flu Pandemic.

These crimes, which are exposed in detail below, continue to demonstrate that capitalism is fundamentally based on war and mass murder, and drive home the fact that the survival of civilization and life on this planet depends on carrying out a Socialist Revolution here in the United States. That must become everybody’s focus today. Not continuing to “elect” some capitalist candidate such as Hillary Clinton in one more staged sham election, where the outcome has been decided upon in advance and all candidates represent only the interests of the capitalist class, and where the only issues discussed all reduce to how best to continue the escalating crimes of the capitalist dictatorship. In the next sham presidential election the capitalists plan to run Condoleeza (Kindasleezy) Rice against Hillary Clinton in order to eliminate the sexist vote and hand the racist vote to Hillary. They are sooo clever! The decision has obviously already been made at “the top.” This is what’s behind the illusion of a Bush takedown, where all basic policies remain intact. The Hillary-Kindasleezy lineup is such an accepted fact that it is already being built up and heralded everywhere including on Larry King Live as “the ultimate catfight” and a “dream race” by Maureen Dowd, a media-hyped, opinion-molding New York Times columnist who’s role is normally to run interference for the Fascist Bush Regime by inappropriately and irresponsibly trying to engender cynicism in life and death issues where her Ha-Ha—keep laughing—joking comes off sounding increasingly bizarre and creepy especially as one’s class consciousness increases and with it the awareness that the media is nothing but a privatized arm of the U.S. government’s so-called “intelligence community.” (Cynicism is a philosophy of capitalism, a philosophy carefully calculated to engender resignation, submission, acquiescence, despair and defeat and is used to try to undermine organized progressive opposition to capitalism, and above all to keep it anti-Communist. Always be alert to it and expose it for what it is on the spot.)

But the close relationship of the Bushes and Clinton is real! For example, both regimes have worked to abolish the function of the Social Security Act. As the 2008 presidential election approaches however expect a false disassociation between the 2 families. The fake “left’s” new slogan is “The World Can’t Wait” (for Hillary!). Deesgusto! The objective of electing Hillary is to try to perpetuate the illusion of “democracy” in what is actually a constantly hardening capitalist dictatorship, and to more easily push through the oppressive economic warfare measures against the U.S. masses because many of her core constituents, who naively see her as a counterweight to the Bush Regime, support her with an almost religious fervor and can be counted on to help implement virtually anything she agrees to as she moves the country even further to the right, just like her husband did! Any opposition to her police state and Fascist policies will predictably be falsely labeled “sexist!” Her Fascist-minded husband who bombed Iraq on a daily basis almost from the moment he took office has already abolished the function of the first part of the Social Security Act—Welfare. Hillary Clinton has moved further to the right than the Fascist Margaret Thatcher, former PM of the UK during the Reagan Era!

Even if she wanted to, which she most certainly does not, Hillary Clinton could not evacuate the U.S military from Iraq and reverse the Permanent War stage of capitalism. She has also already agreed along with the Democratic Party leadership to switch from wage-based indexing to price-based aka inflation-based indexing in calculating Social Security Benefits which will abolish the function of Social Security just as surely as would “private accounts,” which is largely a Red-Herring meant to distract attention from the switch on Social Security Indexing already agreed to by all Democratic Party leaders, including Hillary, and the constantly escalating economic warfare being waged against the U.S. masses on every conceivable level in order to “solve the overpopulation problem” by helping to bring an increasing number of people to an earlier death (applied Social Darwinism). Once again, this is because capitalism has a dynamic of its own which is independent of the individual capitalists and politicians which make it up. The system is in control—not the politicians and not even the capitalists themselves! The system generates the scum and the scoundrel politicians who in turn are rewarded to the degree that they express and further the internal dynamic of capitalism. This is the Dialectical and Historical Materialist analysis.

All of the material which appears here should be widely reproduced and even translated into as many languages as possible and distributed by every possible means in order to expose the capitalists’ planned Bio-Warfare operation before they unleash it. Other sections on other topics will follow shortly. This will help in organizing the masses to carry out a Socialist Revolution worldwide! Capitalism is a failure. Capitalism offers no future for you or your children. In 1993 the United Front Against Racism and Capitalism-Imperialism exposed the planned Hanta Virus epidemic which the capitalist were just about to unleash. The Hanta Virus, a rare virus supposedly spread by aerosolized mouse droppings and urine (!) has a mortality rate of over 50% with long-term morbidity for the survivors. The media systematically conditioned the masses for a mass epidemic. It was to have originated in the “Four Corners” (an area shared by New Mexico, Arizona, Colorado and Utah) and appeared because the El Nino had caused more rain resulting in a 4 to 5 fold increase in the Dear Mouse population. What a stretch! The Biowarfare criminals were running wild! (They are back at it right now and big time with Bird Flu!) In the Spring of 1993 Dan Rather of CBS reported that “the CDC expects nearly simultaneous outbreaks of Hanta virus within a year in Los Angeles, San Francisco, Chicago, Miami and New York.” (!) The listener could picture in his mind the “Mickeys” packing their bags and discussing their itineraries and preposterously heading off their separate ways from their home in the Four Corners Area: “Hey dude, where you goin’?” “Oh, me? I’m going to San Francisco.” “I’m goin’ to Miami!” “Yeah, well go on, cause I’m goin’ to Chicago!” “Can I come?” It was totally ridiculous. But they sounded very serious. It was a full court press in the media! Such an organism sounded so ideal for extermination of those who lived in Ghettoes, namely People of Color. Racist stereotyping was used to argue that the Mickeys would go to where there were supposedly more vermin, ghettoes supposedly having a worse vermin problem than more well-to-do areas. Someone hurry run tell David Rockefeller at 811 Fifth Avenue! Somebody’s “brainstorm” at the so-called Centers For Disease Control! We exposed it from the beginning. That may have influenced either the “brainstormers” or their masters to cancel it. Today however the capitalists have much bigger fish to fry so it will take the work of the masses to expose this little Bird Flu number they are about to jump off with. It is an obligation of all those who read this material and agree with the analysis to distribute it.

The Most Likely Scenario for a World Pandemic
Created by the the United States Government:

The capitalists may choose to release the H5N1 Avian Flu virus first, if they choose to release both, because H5N1 has demonstrated an extremely high fatality rate in those humans who have developed symptoms, and also because the media has conditioned the entire world to expect that virus to cause the human pandemic and to expect it within the next year or so, and maybe sooner. If the U.S. decides on the H5N1 Avian Flu virus they will probably first release it in China, Vietnam or somewhere in the Far East, where they want to kill the most people, so it will look like it originated there just as they did with the SARS virus.

For their Reconstructed 1918 Spanish Flu virus the capitalists have 2 release options: 1.) They can falsely claim: “It escaped from the lab” or 2.) They can claim that “bio-terrorists” (Other than them? Not likely!), or a “disgruntled employee” used the published viral genome and independently reconstructed the virus. The preparation for the first option has been very straightforward in seemingly irresponsibly, but actually very deliberately, carrying out all work in a lower level Bio-Safety Level-3 Laboratory (B-3 Lab), when it is an absolute no-brainer for any competent microbiologist or physician that a Bio-Safety Level-4 Laboratory (B-4 Lab), which has the strictest bio-safety conditions, is an absolute requirement for work on such a dangerous virus. Published complaints about the choice of the B-3 Lab with its lower level bio-safety requirements have appeared in Nature magazine, October 6, 2005. Contrasted with this choice of bio-safety level for the Reconstructed 1918 virus, the work on the H5N1 Bird Flu Virus is all being carried out in a B-4 top security lab at the CDC. Cox’s fellow Bio-Warfare Criminal colleague Jeffrey K. Taubenberger at the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology, who sequenced and published the genome of the Reconstructed 1918 Spanish Flu virus, and Terrence M. Tumpey, who led the team which actually reconstructed the 1918 pandemic virus, who also works at the CDC with Nancy Cox are both working in B-3 Laboratories! That contradiction has only one purpose: creating a pretext for release of the Reconstructed 1918 virus!

A B-4 Lab requires full body suits, multiple air locks, showers and negative pressure ventilation systems which prevent any air form escaping into the environment. By using a B-3 Lab the capitalists can claim: “It escaped. You were right. Gee, if we had only listened! We made a costly human error and we are so very sorry! We will be more careful next time!” You can already hear it! Richard Ebright, of Rutgers University, who serves on biosecurity panels, stated in the Nature article: “Tumpey et al. have constructed a virus that represents perhaps the most effective bioweapon agent now known.” One minor problem is that only a tiny percentage of people read Nature and Science and Ebright is only willing to go so far as to say that what Tumpey et al. are doing is dangerous and a mistake! But make no mistake, it’s not a “mistake!” Ebright knows that and he covers it up, but he is just one more controlled “opposition” figure who has been placed in front of an issue in order to control that issue and to make it less likely that others in the field would go further than his statements and expose what actually is happening and why. In the Nature article Ebright states that there is a significant risk “verging on inevitability” of accidental release of the virus into the human population and points out that “in 2003 a SARS virus escaped from a B-3 Lab in Singapore and in 2004 two further escapes occurred from a B-3 Lab in Beijing.” (Tell us something we don’t know already or couldn’t figure out, please!) Ebright also mentions the capitalists’ second option, i.e. making the (false) claim that a bio-terrorist or a “disgruntled, disturbed or extremist employee has launched the epidemic” as if that hysteria-fomenting pretext had any credibility at all, which it most certainly does not, especially in this era of background checks that would make an average person cringe. An example of this last option was when the U.S. government falsely accused the very innocent Steven J. Hatfill, ridiculously labeling him a “person of interest” in the 2001 Anthrax Bio-Terrorism Provocation. See below for the full explanation of the 2001 Anthrax Bio-Terrorism Provocation which follows the section on the U.S. government’s Planned World Flu Pandemic.

None of this is rocket science but it is all being covered up, hiding in plain sight, and the U.S. government’s propaganda lies for the most part are simply repeated in the capitalists’ media (a privatized arm of the U.S. government’s “intelligence community”) without being totally refuted and thoroughly exposed in every detail in order to educate the masses. In addition, this material and much more is covered up also by the leadership of all of the fake “left” groups. See below: The Capitalists Rule Through a Combination of Force and Deception. Instead partial exposure of a few of the capitalists crimes does not ever involve these topics and is never carried out in logically precise irrefutable detail and almost never in advance as done here. The only groups in the spectrum of government-controlled and operated fake “left” and single issue groups which handle these topics are Conspiracy Theory groups,” whose versions of events invariably contain multiple pieces of straw man disinformation in order to discredit the central claims. Conspiracy Theory and is handled primarily by the John Birch Society Fascists and some Anarchists. As far as the fake “left” is concerned the capitalists would never carry out an assassination of their own president, e.g. in 1963 where Nixon is documented with photo-overlay evidence to have organized the assassination of JFK using the so-called “Watergate Burglars” disguised as the so-called “Dealey Plaza Tramps.” And they would never carry out the assassination of political opposition leaders domestic and foreign; and the capitalists would never be so dastardly as to design the AIDS virus which targets primarily Blacks and Gays, or deliberately create a World Bird Flu Pandemic. Heavens to Betsy, No!

The fake “left” also prefers to cover up the central issue, crucial to building and organizing support for a new system based on human need not private profit, that there was no “collapse of the Soviet Union,” but a rather surrender to the threat of a nuclear war! (See below) The fake “left” lies, through lies of commission and omission, on virtually every topic because the primary purpose of the fake “left” is to impersonate opposition to the capitalist dictatorship by talking tough and saying nothing just like any capitalist demagogue and to present a barrier to genuine Communist leadership while they lead the masses to defeat, generally behind unreal pacifist and idealistic slogans carefully designed to encourage the false belief that capitalism can be reformed. See below. So far the capitalists have succeeded in their deception and misleadership. This is because of the present Correlation of Class Forces. Once again it is vital to remember that all wars are won and lost on moral and every movement begins with the call! Let’s not permit the capitalists to keep us demoralized and divided. Organization is what counts and we must begin to organize everywhere.

The purpose of Conspiracy Theory groups, such as the Far-Right (Fascist!) John Birch Society which is run by anti-Communist crazies, is to try to intimidate and demoralize the Working Class and everyone else! Conspiracy theorists do not to focus on the class struggle, which is the exact opposite of the fake “left” which permits no mention of actual capitalist statecraft as mentioned above but instead focus on supposedly all-powerful elite secret capitalist societies and their closed meetings such as the Bilderberg Conference, etc. They seek to relegate their members and adherents to a state of worship and fear of these elitist capitalist societies with the implication that they are much too powerful to be successfully opposed or overthrown, which has already happened with the 1917 Russian Revolution and China and Cuba. The reality is that these elitist groups and meetings do exist and conspiracies most certainly exist (Conspiracy is just another word for planning and is part of capitalist statecraft.), but the conspiracy theorists cover up the fact that the capitalist system, which all of these groups either actively or passively support in practice (because they do not call for its overthrow and also call for a Socialist Revolution ) is fundamentally based on war, mass murder, exploitation and super-exploitation.

The negatives of capitalism far outweigh the positives and have for a long time! The choice we have is to remain passive passengers on this Titanic, which is going only one way—down with us on it, or we can organize a Socialist Revolution which will provide the solution to the entire complex of problems created by capitalism-imperialism, and which now directly threatens all life on Earth. The fake “opposition” covers up the key fact: U.S. world capitalism-imperialism has reached its final stage of Permanent War, which is potentially the most ideal Pre-Revolutionary situation possible under capitalism!!! Even those among the fake “left” who claim that they are “for Socialism” deliberately cover up the fact that The Pre-Condition for Socialist Revolution in the United States and any developed country is Mutiny in the armed forces. That is why we must call for Mutiny in Iraq as in Vietnam—the Real Reason the Vietnam War ended in 1975! There is no “third way” or alternative to capitalism-imperialism, which can not be reformed through any form of capitalist elections or by any other means. The strategy, tactics and techniques of achieving a Socialist Revolution in the United States are discussed below.

Operation Anthrax—The Explanation of the
2001 Anthrax Bio-Terrorism Provocation
By the United States Government:

Watch out you guys working at the CDC or NIH, or elsewhere for the U.S. Biowarfare Department. Especially if you have a high expendability rating, for example, having lied on your resume, as did the totally innocent Steven J. Hatfill, you might wind up as a so-called “person of interest” when he was sacrificed in the 2001 Anthrax Terrorism attacks. He was singled out in order to distract from the facts and actual evidence, which actually convict the United States government beyond a shadow of a doubt of carrying out the 2001 Bio-Terrorist Provocation. Circumstantial evidence is more than enough to convict in capital cases every day! The capitalists openly admitted that the powdered highly purified weaponized Ames strain of anthrax used in the anthrax letters came from the U.S. Bio-Warfare Department. The U.S. Government calls it part of their “Biodefense”(!) program! It sounds so absurd. So Ridiculously Orwellian! It’s another example of a Big Lie. Precisely the same as the so-called “Defense Department,” which was always called the War Department up until August 10, 1949 when they changed the name to try to hide the fact that capitalism is fundamentally dependent on war and mass murder to steal new resources and new markets.

Regarding the 2001 Anthrax Provocation—U.S. government “experts first falsely claimed that it “would have been easy for a scientist working with anthrax to remove a small amount of the weaponized Ames strain from the lab(!?)” and also falsely claimed that “security has been lax”(!), a Big Lie which was immediately refuted by many microbiologists. Then the U.S. government “experts” falsely claimed precisely the opposite: that “it would be extremely difficult to steal 10g of weaponized anthrax from a government lab so ‘the perpetrator’(!) very likely grew and weaponized the letter anthrax himself.”(!) Totally ridiculous! That long and extremely complicated process would without any question require a B-4 Lab with its advanced instrumentation, facilities, personnel and security! And the act of transferring the powdered anthrax bioweapon into envelopes also could only be carried out in a B-4 Lab because there must be no motion of air during the procedure. The transfer has to be carried out in an air-sealed transparent box (hood), which is entered only through holes fitted with special gloves, using hands which are also gloved. Then the letters must be placed in a sealed container(s) a process which is also carried out in the airtight box in the same fashion, and then the anthrax letters must be transported and deposited very carefully in the targeted U.S. Post Office mailboxes late at night while the approaches to the mailbox are monitored from many directions on the sidewalk and in the street by a sufficient number of people in order to prevent discovery! Those who actually carried out Operation Anthrax left none of their DNA or any other clues indicating that they had forensic training and experience. They would also have to have been vaccinated against Anthrax to guarantee they would not become infected. The vaccine was in short supply and not generally accessible except by the U.S. Biowarfare criminals who carried out Operation Anthrax.

The anthrax letters were sent mainly to the media and Democratic Party leaders and were mailed from multiple sites and from multiple states in too short a time to have been carried out by one person “a lone male terrorist” as the FBI deliberately falsely alleged. This fact is covered up. It sounds just as ridiculous as the Warren Report conclusion that John Kennedy was killed by “a lone assassin,” a bizarre claim that was rejected by 80% of the American public! In addition, the Anthrax Attacks were carried out according to a classified protocol written by Bill Patrick dated 1999 describing what a terrorist could achieve with letters mailed containing anthrax. Therefore the perpetrator U.S. government undoubtedly had high security clearance and access to Patrick’s 1999 protocol. Hatfill had no such security clearance and no motive whatsoever nor could he have possibly have carried out the attacks alone. He did not even have unrestricted access to the weaponized Anthrax bioweapon in the first place, despite the fact that it had been available in 15 laboratories! The U.S. government is the only entity which did have a motive and the means to carry out the entire operation! The first anthrax letter was mailed on September 18, 2001, which indicates that Operation Anthrax had been planned and organized well before September 11, 2001 and that it had been precisely coordinated with the 911 Attack, which was a well-planned and orchestrated U.S. government-facilitated provocation. See below for full explanation. The fact that the first Anthrax letter was mailed on September 18th also means that both attacks were orchestrated by the same people! The motive in carrying out the Anthrax terrorism was to help foment hysteria domestically in order to help manipulate public opinion and to provide another false pretext to ram through the unconstitutional Fascist USA Patriot Act, to justify more money for “biodefense”(!!) and to provide yet another false provocation to justify capitalism’s own internal dynamic (natural development sequence) and entry into its final stage: Permanent War which is directed against the entire world, including its own domestic population on all levels, under the pretext of the hypocritically-titled so-called “War on Terrorism.”

Crazy,
OTH could be in Turkey, we still have plenty of bases there. Greece, Cyprus, I've never heard whether or not we've abandoned our bases in Egypt (I had friends that hated going there), I've heard we're building a new base in Israel, the 'stans, Kuwait would welcome our presence, or even aircraft carriers off shore.

The biggest question to me is will this issue get the majority of Americans off their XBoxes or web porn and get them to pay attention? How can we have a democracy if there is no citizen participation? What will it take to get the average citizen to pay attention to what politicians are doing?

I guess until they start going hungry the Republicrats are going to be able to do anything they want.

"It has to do with a group of inept fanatics that thought they had a grand design to steal the Iraqi oilfields and establish a military stronghold between Israel and its enemies."
All the antiSemites come out to play ...

They hate President Bush.
They hate Israel.
They hate America.

".....What will it take to get the average citizen to pay attention to what politicians are doing?"....."

Posted by Dons Blog

A functioning Fourth Estate. Don't get your hopes up.

I wish it were that easy POA. But I've seen the difference on my own blog. Post something about Tom Cruise or Breasts not Bombs, and they beat a path to my door. Post something about a loss of civil rights, and their eyes glaze over.

Certainly some of it is information overload. But what is it about this group that gathers here that's different? This is a very intelligent group. I've studied foreign policy for decades and traveled the world, and yet many here make me feel foolish at times. You've had some great insights yourself POA.

Why are we different, and how can we bottle that for spreading around a bit?

What a difference it would have made if more people had actually learned about the middle eastern culture, their long history, and some peoples desire for empire. We could have saved tens of thousands of lives.

Thanks goodness Murtha was willing to take on the critics and voice the opinions of many that had been unheard. Or Cindy Sheehan. Or Sherry Glaser. People that had the courage of their convictions and really made a difference.

Whether or not you agree with their stands, they've forced the discussion into the open. A discussion which the administration has cowed the media into actively preventing. And the people have been willing to avoid.

patriot325........

One of the things I find the most distressing, and alarming, about this whole mess is that your kind of ignorance, and the people that share it with you, seem to be supporting Bush 100%.

"I wish it were that easy POA. But I've seen the difference on my own blog. Post something about Tom Cruise or Breasts not Bombs, and they beat a path to my door. Post something about a loss of civil rights, and their eyes glaze over"

Posted by Dons Blog

The public's apathy has been nurtured by Washington. And they have employed the media to advance that apathy. It just seems to me that media determines the values of a society, and the values we have been "sold" are designed to take our eyes and our minds away from looking behind the curtains. The truth about our leaders and our nation has become so polar to our carefully nurtured national self image that it is uncomfortable and unsettling to see ourselves as we truly are. It cuts right to the quick, threatening our sense of security for ourselves and our loved ones. That is the reason I believe the obviously unanswered questions about what occurred on 9/11, and the subsequent anthrax "attacks", have been so easily cast aside. Its called denial. And this nation has one helluva case of it.

Sapere, we don't need a "reasonable" option beyond the obvious: we are tired of losing good children, fathers and mothers to support some asshole's desire to rule the world by proxy. We want them to protect the US, not the world.

If we were so smart and powerful, we would not be in this mess. We would not be defending Israel from its neighbors, we'd be building better relations with OUR neighbors, and demanding that they do the same with theirs. We'd certainly never accept the accusation that not doing what Israel wants is antisemitism. They survived the holocaust, now it's time for them to survive the rest of their destiny on their own.

Bullets need direction and discretion to support power. Anything more than the well placed munition is a waste of power. It may be a boon to its manufacturers, but it is waste nonetheless.

We don't mind helping other nations with some of their problems, but we certainly don't want to spend the lives of our citizens helping them unless there is a PROVEN threat, a threat proven by more than the lies of a politician, to the United States.

Whether Iraq can sustain this government they "chose" is not our problem. We needn't care about what happens there when we leave. If they waste our investment, it is their loss. They are not our children, and certainly are not more important than our children.

Personally, I'd hate GWB even more if he covered up his lies with the bodies of more citizens. He's already shown that he has no respect for the lives of our citizens; he should not be allowed to compound his crimes. How is this war he provoked any better than the mass graves we found and have yet to find?

This idea of "well, we made a mistake, but we can't admit it or ending it and controlling the damage to our nation" is BULLSHIT.

We're still the most powerful country in the world, and getting out of Iraq does not change that. If others believe that we are weak, let them try another Pearl Harbor and suffer the consequences. Not finding Usama bin Laden has done more damage to our reputation that Iraq. I would support redirecting our military toward that task, and dealing with whatever fallout leaving Iraq now brings in the future.

The most fervent and vocal hawks in this neocon movement are those who have no military service and no experience in killing people. At most, they are the cooks and drivers who forgot everything they learned two days after basic training ended. They are armchair quarterbacks, and should be banished to the living room once again.

Beyond wanting our citizens to live, we have no need for any other reason or "option". None of this abstract crap is relevant to that. Their lives are more important than Iraq, even if it does have more oil than God.

I have read every answer to the questions posed here and have seriously considered the merits of all of your arguments. What you have written as well as what I have read in the RS article and another article from the LAT have caused me to think even more seriously about the subject of troop withdrawal. Although, at this time, I still do not support premature withdrawal, I am considering the pros and cons of a slow but steady withdrawal starting, perhaps, in a few months.

As I said before,I have the greatest respect for Congressman Murtha and, although I may disagree with him, although only, now, somewhat disagree with his opinions on troop withdrawal, his consideration of the troops is to be applauded.

In responding to Don's post, I think you must give credit to Steve Clemons for creating a place where those who care more for the state of affairs in the U.S. as well as the world have a place to freely express and share their perspectives. This blog is a place, although of course figuratively speaking, where the readers are encouraged and persuaded to think outside of the box and outside of their own political affiliations. As a result of Steve's expert insight, I am aware not only do peons such as I read his posts but as well so do some very, very influential people. I assume many of you, unlike myself, fit into the latter catgory.

Finally to respond to the question of how do we make other Americans care as greatly as we do about issues such as Iraq, I have an answer, an answer that will certainly irk many of you. Many Americans are capable of compartmentalizing friendly and foreign casualties because they do not know them personally and, therefore, have no immediate interest. This group of Americans includes many who are currently serving in elected office in Washington, D.C.. In an effort to combat this, the United States should consider drafting its citizens into compulsory military service - perhaps a year or two with only genuine medical and not education exemptions. I promise you if this were to happen, every Joe Schmoe and Jane Doe, whether they be your reliable garbage collector or your U.S. representaive, would suddenly begin to think much harder about the U.S.
s decision to go to war. Suddenly, their own daughter's, son's, grandson's, granddaughter's, wife's, or even their own life might be at risk.
Until such a time, the loss is, unfortunately, many a time regarded as that only of a few brave men and women who volunteer - although for the record, now, who after having served their time are being compelled to stay even longer -to lose their lives in the so-called defense of their nation. Anyway, just a thought...

I look forward to reading Steve's next post and all of your comments, but, for now, for reasons that are irrelevant to all here, this is my last one...

sapere_aude,

Would you support legislation that would limit the numbers of deployments in a combat zone that any troop can serve within a 6-year or 10-year period?

What about legislation that would limit the amount of time that a National Guardsman or Reservist can serve overseas?

Contrary to popular belief, there are more options than immediate withdrawal and another Vietnam. The solution is to announce a withdrawal date. Iraqi culture has a strong hatred of what they perceive as American / British occupation and the only way to break that dynamic is announce a withdrawal date.

Sapere,

If our soldiers were fighting to defend us, I would be solemnly for staying the course, because winning would be a successful defense of or nation.

Our children are not fighting for our country. They are fighting for neocon and Zionist domination of the middle east, and have been transformed into IDF-by-proxy.

This sibling rivalry should be settled by the siblings. We should be ready to help once the fighting is over and all involved are ready to family again, but their should be no more military assistance, and no more lives should be spend in support of propaganda that is twisted and mostly false.

I will always be against having my fellow citizens face munitions is support of someone else. No ally of our is more important than our own people.

J. Murtha does not represent me. Frankly, a man of his caliber should only be considered a bottom feeder. This was pure political prank. He is sure of his pension and his political days are numbered. View this man for what he is. Wake up, America. Politics in action. Our troops suffer. Nothing has changed. America never supports its veterans. I am married to a 100% disabled vet. I have lost an uncle and close cousin in armed conflict. I have two sons in current active service. Murtha's statement's are treason. Step down, ASAP
Sincerely,
Katey