Once again, I'm vindicated. I've been railing against these Neo-Con Zionists and their apologists in the government, media and thinktanks for quite some time. I have frequently been called a conspiracy theorist, moonbat, an anti-semite and most humorously a self-hating Jew. I wear all of these titles with a badge of honor. I am these Neo-Con Zionist's worst nightmare. An educated, somewhat objective, patriotic American Jew who is willing to seek the truth no matter how ugly it is. The fact that these Neo-Con Zionists are Jewish is quite incidental to the fact that they are traitors to their countrymen, to their religion and to the human race!!

PNAC, OSP, WHIG, Likud, AIPAC spies, dancing Israelis on 9/11, Comverse Infosys, Checkpoint, Amdocs, Feith, Wolfowitz, Kristol, Bolton, Krauthammer, Wurmser, Abrams, Libby, Grossman, Abramoff...I rest my case.

Steve: Glad to hear that you're considering writing something on this important subject. I hope you have the courage to follow through. The taboo about discussing this as a policy/political issue has done a lot of damage to American national interests over the years. If we can openly discuss the fact that the only reason for the U.S. embargo on Cuba is Florida's electoral votes, why can't we discuss how U.S. Middle East policy is influenced by the way American politicians fund their campaigns?

managedchaos, it was "palestinians" and other arabs who were dancing on 9/11. A video actually exists to prove it, unlike your scurillous, phony, bigoted allegations that originated in the arab world about Israelis. You only confirm how thoroughly morally bankrupt, anti-Semitic and nazi-like the modern left has become. I'm sure you must be proud of your affillation with klansmen david duke.

BTW this so-called "scholarly" paper has been thoroughly debunked for the garbage it is. The real traitors to America are those that back the islamo-fascists while they execute Christians, genitally mutilate women, behead unbelievers etc.

Join the Campaign for progressive legislation.

"Because just blogging or complaining about Republicans will not get you anywhere significant."

Browse http://www.boycott-republicans.com

We support Israel for the same reason we are friends with Britain, Canada, Australia, Germany, Japan etc; because it is a free country that shares our western values. The countries of the arab world are oppressive fascist regimes. The real question should be is why we continue to be allied with saudi arabia which persecutes women, gays, Christians, has and continues to fund terrorism and wahhabi schools which incite hatred and violence against us.

How is it that modern day "progressives" justify aligning themselves with those that oppress gays and women, groups that in the past they have championed the rights of?

Saudi Arabia contributed $20 million to Harvard University recently.
I wonder what was Mearsheimer`s and Walt`s cut?

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=7&x_issue=35&x_article=1099

Bee in your bonnet, Laura?
Your rants are a bit scattershot this morning.

Laura, I feel really sorry for you and your ilk. The stench of desperation eminates from your post and that is the smell of victory. Nothing like the smell of desperation in the morning. Steve, don't submit to these Zionist threats. Allow me to give you a little reality check, Laura. As someone who works in Information Technology, you are very lucky I don't have nefarious intentions because I see you left your AOL address. I won't even mention what we can deduce from someone who still has an AOL address in the year 2006.

http://www.sundayherald.com/37707
Five Israelis were seen filming as jet liners ploughed into the Twin Towers on September 11, 2001

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=75266&contrassID=2&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y
5 Israelis detained for `puzzling behavior' after WTC tragedy

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0622-05.htm
Were Israelis Detained on Sept. 11 Spies?

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/fiveisraelis.html
The Five Dancing Israelis
Arrested On 9-11

Fox News - 911 The Israeli Connection
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article7545.htm

I applaud ManagedChaos's reply to the obvious desparation of Laura and her ilk.
Touche'!!!!

So, if I understand Managed Chaos correctly, American Jews don't have the right to lobby their own government? Or is it that they are simply too effectivve at doing so? Laura is absolutely correct. I am deeply disappointed at Clemons for his views on this topic. The Mearsheimer piece reads like the hate-filled "Elders of Zion" screed: it's a secret jewish conspiracy! They control the media, the banks and the government! I am a member of AIPAC and I vote. I am a proud and deeply patriotic American and proud that my government supports Israel. The American-Israel relationship is good for our country and that is why it receives Congressional and Presidential support through the years.

Laura, serious people don't place quotes around the word Palestinians. By using this little conceit you betrays your own prejudices and ignorance. I am married to a Palestinian. Her father was born in Bethlehem in 1929 in Palestine. Only ignorant people claim that Palestinians are not a distinct people.

"American Jews don't have the right to lobby their own government?"

No, they don't have a right to lobby the American government ON BEHALF OF A FOREIGN GOVERNMENT without being registered as a foreign agent!

If AIPAC would like to register as a foreign agent, go right ahead and lobby all you want. Otherwise, shut the fuck up. Would you like to debate whether or not AIPAC is a tool of the Israeli government? Ever heard of Steve Rosen and Keith Weissman? Larry Franklin? Richard Perle? Kenneth Pollack? AIPAC was being investigated since 1999. Is the FBI a bunch of anti-semites?

American and Israeli interests do NOT run parallel. What's good for Israel is not good for America and vice versa. Anyone who claims this is a flat-out danger to this country and to real Jews all around the world.

Let's be Clear...as they say.

The Israeli Lobby, AIPAC IS bad for America...it IS a foreign lobby...it DOES control at least 80% of our US congress. Period.

Like most Americans, I paid little attention to the ME or to the Isr/Pal conflict or US/Isr relations until 911 came along. Shortly after that event the hair on the back of my neck began to stand up as I observed the overt PR campaign in this country to convince us we were "All Israelis Now" and that "Israel's Cause was America's Cause"...meaning that Israel's enemies were our enemies.

Since then I have educated myself, begining with the British National archives and the UN for history on Isr/Pal, the US Presidential libaries for documents and correspondence on US/Isr, a study of legistation during the past three decades in behalf of Israel..done as an effort to understand the Israeli centric attitude in our goverment, it all led to politics, to our own congress and to the Jewish -hyphen- American AIPAC group.

I agree with the "Israel Lobby" 100%, word for word, absolutely. It is exactly what I found for myself in all my research from nonpartisan, documented, strictly factual sources.

Let us also acknowledge that with out the corruption of our elected representatives, AIPAC could not have subverted our foreign and sometimes our domestic policy.

I have become totally unsympathic with Israel and it's Jewish-hyphen-American supporters and totally disgusted with their transparent and illogical attempts to convince us that America and Israel are "one and the same" or "what is good for Israel is good for America". The two main tools in the AIPAC, Jewish-hypen-American campaign are smearing anyone who objects to this peversion as anti-semitic, and pretending that Israel and America have exact interest. As far as I can see there are a number of Jewish-hyphen-Americans that use these rationals to either:
NO. 1. justify their own lack of loyalty to America or
No 2 ..as propaganda for Americans so they can continue to advance Israeli interest over American interest.

The defense of AIPAC by these Israeli supporters always involves the claim that "citizens have a right to lobbby for their interest" and that "AIPAC is "free speech".

Well, George Washington warned us long ago in his Farewell address to the nation about our own "democratic tools" being "used" against us to subvert the good of the nation when he cautioned:

" all combinations and associations, under whatever plausible character, with the real design to direct, control, counteract, or awe the regular deliberation and action of the constituted authorities, are destructive of this fundamental principle, and of fatal tendency. They serve to organize faction, to give it an artificial and extraordinary force; to put, in the place of the delegated will of the nation, the will of a party, often a small but artful and enterprising minority of the community; and, according to the alternate triumphs of different parties, to make the public administration the mirror of the ill-concerted and incongruous projects of faction, rather than the organ of consistent and wholesome plans digested by common counsels, and modified by mutual interests.

However combinations or associations of the above description may now and then answer popular ends, they are likely, in the course of time and things, to become potent engines, by which cunning, ambitious, and unprincipled men will be enabled to subvert the power of the people, and to usurp for themselves the reins of government; destroying afterwards the very engines, which have lifted them to unjust dominion.

In fact Washington's warning on foreign influence's is so accurate to our current time and the true "foreign nature of AIPAC it is errie, and even more scary that this influence is coming from within our country itself by groups that insist dual loyalty is normal and their "right" and base their identity on being hyphen-Americans instead of just American:

"Against the insidious wiles of foreign influence (I conjure you
to believe me, fellow citizens) the jealousy of a free people
ought to be constantly awake, since history and experience prove
that foreign influence is one of the most baneful foes of
republican government. But that jealousy, to be useful, must
be impartial, else it becomes the instrument of the very influence
to be avoided, instead of a defense against it. Excessive
partiality for one foreign nation and excessive dislike of
another cause those whom they actuate to see danger only on one
side, and serve to veil and even second the arts of influence
on the other. Real patriots who may resist the intrigues of the
favorite are liable to become suspected and odious, while its
tools and dupes usurp the applause and confidence of the people
to surrender their interests."

Speaking for myself, as a plain un-hyphened American, I have informed my congressman and senator that I WILL not vote for anyone of either party who does not disassociate themselves from
AIPAC and all other foreign influences that sway our own best interest and policy, other than strictly humanitarian, any any election. Period.

And I am confident in saying this Israeli take over of so many aspects of our goverment will eventually blow up in everyone's face...and history will sort out who were the patriots and who were traitors in this scheme.

The Israel Lobby is a Must Read I have forwarded liberally.

[Note to SC: your New America system rejects large attachments, 1500K approx. in total including Distribution list and Exhibit A.]

For all interested in receiving a copy of a Strategic Plan to produce progressive electoral victories in 2006, 2008, 2012 and beyond, contact this e-mail address:

Publius.for.progress@gmail.com

Although the initial response to the plan's debut has been overwhelming, requests for the plan from unlisted progressive leaders are being reviewed currently.

The 3 files are large but are in PDF format; you will not be added to any mailing lists. The plan is being distributed progressively nationwide to hundreds of progressive and Democratic Party leaders. The sections most relevant to this particular debate are the sections analyzing the principal national security challenges facing the nation and progressive approaches to their resolution as well as the section dealing with media and message dissemination strategy.

Managed Chaos:

You have been called lots of names. Shame. Someone needs to speak to reasonably about your problem. You are the victim of an errant intellectual virus, the post-1967 Soviet anti-zionism campaign, part of the strategic "hearts and minds" battles of the cold war. The discourse rattles around in the West still in leftist group-think, occassionally taken up in rightist group-think. Liberate yourself.

Modern day "palestinians" are decendents of people that migrated to palestine from surrounding arab countries around the same time Jews did, in the mid to late 19th century. In fact Jews had never completely left palestine. The arabs came to take advantage of the jobs and opportunities provided by Jews. Another fact is the arabs of palestine didn't even call themselves "palestinians", prior to the establishment of Israel. They referred to themselves as south Syrians or just arabs. No, in fact the "palestinians" are not distinguishable from any other arabs.

Laura
May I call your Joan Peters?
..or her plagiarist, Dershowitz?

Along with millions of others who have AOL. What is the relevance of anyone's ISP?

managedchaos, the desperation is all on your side, as your threat proves. And the fact that your side has thoroughly aligned itself with neo-nazis and islamo-fascists. There was a time when the left actually defended the human rights of women and gays, now they are on the side of those who persecute women and gays. Are you proud of what the so-called "progressive" movement has morphed into; that of a hateful, fascist movement which takes the side of those who execute gays, practice honor killings against women etc?
The only thing the left stands for now is simply to oppose anything the U.S. and Israel does, even if that means defending the worst violators of human rights in the world. Talk about being desperate, and shameless.

American Jew, why be disappointed? Steve's position comes as no surprise to me. This is what we've come to expect from the modern day left. I would be shocked if Steve had taken any other position.

To debunk this study:
.......................
US support for Israel is due to the machinations of the pro-Israel lobby. Scholars of the US-Israeli relationship like Professors Nadav Safran of Harvard have demonstrated that US support for Israel is owed to US national interests, not to Jewish support for Israel (as evidenced by the fact that American Jews have been consistently pro-Israel even when US support for Israel was much less). Israeli assistance in furthering US interests, defeating Soviet clients in battle and saving the pro-Western Jordanian regime in the early 1970s were major reasons for the upsurge in US aid for Israel.
US "unwavering support" for Israel and efforts to democratize the Middle East has "inflamed Arab and Islamic public opinion and jeopardized US security." Anti-Americanism in the Middle East and numerous attacks on American assets, personnel and civilians have been occurring since 1979, long before US efforts to introduce democratic change in the Middle East. Rohan Gunaratna, a leading expert on Al Qaeda and author of the highly acclaimed Inside Al Qaeda Rohan Gunaratna has shown, attacked America for years, not because of US support for Israel, but chiefly because of opposition to American support for the Saudi regime and the presence of US troops (now removed) in the country. US support for Israel has also never been unwavering and especially in Israel's early decades the countries were sometimes at odds. During the 1948-49 war, the US imposed an arms embargo on the Middle East which deprived Israel of much-needed weaponry in this war of survival. President Eisenhower threatened to impose sanctions on Israel unless it withdrew from Sinai after the 1956 war. President Johnson refused to send the US fleet to break the Egyptian naval blockade on Israel in 1967. Even since the upsurge in US support for Israel, US support has hardly been unqualified and the two countries are still often in disagreement. In 1973, the US pressured Israel into ending the war when Israeli forces were on the road to Damascus and Cairo, preventing Israel from reaping a full military victory, as in the earlier 1956 and 1967 wars. During the Oslo peace process, the US did not insist on Palestinian compliance with signed obligations to end terrorism and the incitement to hatred and murder that feeds it. Despite lack of Palestinian compliance, the US has often pressured Israel to make further concessions, like releasing Palestinian terrorists, many of whom returned to terror. The Clinton and Bush administrations have criticized legitimate Israeli counter-terrorism measures, including roadblocks, the security fence and targeting terrorists, and pressured Israel to curtail military incursions against terrorist strongholds. President Bush personally criticized the Israeli killing of Hamas leader, Abdel Aziz Rantisi. The Bush Administration refused to endorse changes sought by Israel in the Roadmap peace plan, despite Israel's call for 14 substantial revisions. This is hardly a picture of "unwavering support." Both the Clinton and Bush administrations have refused to relocate the US embassy in Israel to Jerusalem.
US support for Israel hinders the war on Islamist terror. Bin Laden's 1998 fatwa against the US lists several reasons for Al Qaeda's murderous anti-Americanism, yet Israel was not high on the list or discussed in any detail. Bin Laden only raised the Palestinian issue after 9/11. Bin Laden's pronouncements make it clear that even anti-Israel pro-Western regimes remain a target of jihadi terrorists. Also, US efforts to bring about an Israeli-Palestinian peace in the 1990s and pressure Israel into unreciprocated concessions to the Palestinians did not earn it the gratitude of Al Qaeda or any of the other terrorist groups presently at war with America. Iran, the biggest backer of terrorist groups fighting America, has always regarded America as the 'Great Satan' and would be opposed to the Western, secular influence of the West led by America even if Israel had never existed.
Israel has systematically made unauthorized transfers of US military technology to China. This claim stems from a State Department Inspector-General's report that was repudiated by the official overseeing transfers within the Department, Richard Clarke, who said that there was only one, minor such transfer (on aerial refueling technology), not a pattern of them.
Syria is a potential American ally who has served US interests in the war on terror well. In fact, Syria has facilitated the infiltration of jihadists killing American troops in Iraq, worked since 1993 to undermine US-sponsored Israeli-Palestinian negotiations, brutalized Lebanon for many years and served as a conduit for weapons transfer to Hezbollah terrorists.
Israel enjoyed military superiority in the 1948-49 war. In fact, as scholars of the war have shown, Israel was heavily outnumbered in all branches of manpower and weaponry, especially tanks, aircraft and artillery. Moreover, the US imposed an arms embargo that prevented US arms reaching Israel.
In the 1948-49 war, Israeli leaders planned to drive out Arabs and expand Israel's borders. The authors have recycled discredited claims using distorted or wholly bogus quotations from Israel's David Ben Gurion and other leaders. Historians like Efraim Karsh has exposed many such quotations and even one of those who made distortions whom Mearsheimer and Walt cite, Benny Morris, has referred to documents that show Ben Gurion's strong rejection of the idea of forcibly removing Arabs.
Israel is a discriminatory state. Unlike many Arab/Islamic countries, Israel does not deny political rights to specific minority groups in its jurisdiction, but extends citizenship and equal rights to all its minorities, even at a time of war. Unlike many neighboring countries, Israeli citizenship is not dependent on religion or race.
Palestinians are an innocent party unjustly harmed by Israel's creation. Israel came into being in 1948 fighting for its survival and winning against an enemy that vowed to destroy it and which destroyed any Jewish settlement that fell into or remained in Arab hands by the end of that war. Virtually all scholarship on this issue has demonstrated that the Palestinian leadership created the refugee problem by encouraging Palestinians to leave so that victorious Arab armies could invade and destroy Israel. Between 1948-67, when Judea, Samaria and Gaza were firmly in Arab hands, Palestinians did not call for a Palestinian state. Previously, Palestinians rejected partition plans (Peel Commission, 1937; UN partition plan, 1947) which would have seen Palestinian statehood achieved. Efforts in 2000 to reach a peace settlement at Camp David and Taba failed, with the Palestinians rejecting statehood in nearly all territories they officially claimed without counter-offer. Israel's destruction has been actively sought by Palestinians in preference to Palestinian statehood.
Ariel Sharon was "personally responsible" for the massacre of Palestinian Muslims at Sabra and Chatilla in 1982 by Israel's Lebanese Christian allies. Lebanese Christian militias acting on their own initiative carried out the slaughter of Palestinian Muslims in Sabra and Chatilla. It was not ordered or approved by Sharon.
Palestinian terrorism is the product of "occupation" and while wrong is "not surprising" since "Palestinians believe they have no other way to force Israeli concessions." This completely ignores continuous terrorism against Israel before 1967, when these territories were in Arab hands. Since 1993, Israel recognized the PLO, handed over territory, assets, arms and funds to the Palestinian Authority and proposed the creation of a Palestinian state in nearly all the territories officially claimed by the PA, yet the PA made no counter-offer and fomented a terrorist war in 2000. Israel has unilaterally withdrawn from Gaza, without this reducing Palestinian terrorism from Gaza or elsewhere; on the contrary, Palestinian attacks have increased.
Pro-Arab groups in the US are "weak to non-existent" while the pro-Israel lobby aims to and largely succeeds in stifling debate on the Middle East. Numerous Arab and Muslim organizations, Middle East studies centers and programs filled with anti-Israel academics, retired State Department officials and a host of media pundits are stridently opposed to Israel and garner much attention for their claims. Saudi Arabia especially funds lavishly a wide variety of Muslim pressure groups and academic centers in America that press stridently anti-Israel viewpoints. A large number of major newspapers, including the New York Times, Washington Post and Los Angeles Times are editorially pro-Palestinian.
US has been the "enabler of Israeli expansion in the occupied territories." US policy has never favored Israeli settlement policies and differences on this issue have frequently resulted in difficult times for the US-Israel relationship. The Bush Administration has pressured Israel to accept the Roadmap and make further withdrawals and criticized the growth of existing settlements and the creation of new outposts. In 1992 the first Bush administration withheld from Israel loan guarantees in opposition to Israeli settlement building.
ZOA National President Morton A. Klein said, "As this list of claims show, the so-called 'Working Paper' may have been written by two men holding academic positions, but it is riddled with errors, unscholarly and dishonest. A large part of the sources it quotes are predictable extreme leftist pundits, usually writing in left-wing publications. It is also significant that one of the authors, John Mearsheimer, was a signatory to an infamous January 2003 academic letter that claimed that Israel might use the cover of the then-upcoming US-led war in Iraq to indulge in 'full-fledged ethnic-cleansing' of Palestinians . This was simply a vile slur, nothing of the sort ever happened, yet Mearsheimer has never apologized for making this discreditable claim. He has now simply and shamelessly produced a longer, disgraceful set of claims against Israel and those who defend her. Unsurprisingly, Mearsheimer and Walt's paper has been praised by the usual suspects – former Ku Klux Klan leader David Duke, the Muslim Brotherhood and the PLO office in Washington, which is eagerly distributing it.

"It is one thing to note that pro-Israel advocates have influence and work hard to influence policy; that's their job. It's another to talk of such people as "agents for a foreign government" who hold a "stranglehold" over Washington and other terms that look like they came straight out of the anti-Semitic tract, The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Mearsheimer and Walt may disavow the Protocols, but their paper essentially makes the same anti-Semitic point – that Jews and their supporters are manipulating governments for sordid interests at the expense of the interests of their host country. This is a vicious smearing of loyal Americans working to foster American interests and who believe these are best served by strengthening the relationship with Israel and supporting Israel to secure its right to existence.

"Mearsheimer and Walt also make a big issue out of the fact that Jews like Martin Indyk, Dennis Ross, Aaron Miller and Daniel Kurtzer oversaw US Middle East policy for many years, yet many supporters of Israel were deeply angered by their hostility to and pressure upon Israeli governments. But the authors of this screed do not let facts get in the way of their prejudices.

"It is significant that they quote one or two isolated statistics that suggest Americans want more pressure on Israel but ignore much polling data showing that Americans overwhelmingly support Israel, believe its Arab neighbors do not accept her existence and oppose a Palestinian state and handing Jerusalem over to the Palestinians. American public opinion is very inconvenient to them.

"This hateful, pseudo-intellectual hatchet job is a reminder that anti-Israel forces in this country prefer that American policy support Middle Eastern autocrats over democratic reform on the false ground that this would be good for America. We are already paying for decades of such policies. Mearsheimer and Walt should be recognized for what they are, condemned – and ignored.”

Modern day "palestinians" are decendents of people that migrated to palestine from surrounding arab countries around the same time Jews did, in the mid to late 19th century. In fact Jews had never completely left palestine. The arabs came to take advantage of the jobs and opportunities provided by Jews. Another fact is the arabs of palestine didn't even call themselves "palestinians", prior to the establishment of Israel. They referred to themselves as south Syrians or just arabs. No, in fact the "palestinians" are not distinguishable from any other arabs.

OMG, this is so utterly false! Do you actually believe this?? Do you actually believe that the arab people of Palestine only arrived in the 19th c? Of course, whether they named themselves "Palestinians" or not is irrelevant to whether the people living in Palestine when Zionists began arriving from Europe had a right to continue living where they were living. Of course there was a Jewish population in Palestine in the 19th c. But at the time of the creation of Israel, they were a minority. Please go read Israeli historians on the deliberate ethnic cleansing of Arabs that took place in 1949, so that there could be a majority Jewish population.

I suppose next you'll be telling us that the native people of the Americas only came here in the 17th century to take advantage of the opportunities being created by European settlers.

Laura,

Regarding your assertions to the origins of modern day "Palestinians", perhaps you should find out about the "Khazars".

http://www.khazaria.com/khazar-diaspora.html
http://www.imninalu.net/Khazars.htm

Fact is a substantial portion of people today identifying themselves as "Jews" may not in actuality be "Semites". Enjoy the research.

This AIPAC report is timely. The essence of the issue is not support for Israel or not. Rather, it is a case of a lobbying group becoming way too powerful, throwing too much money around ala Abramoff. Anyone who watched the recent AIPAC conference on C-Span can have no doubts about its influence. I doubt even AARP could get the line up of speakers that AIPAC managed. Everyone from John Edwards to John Bolton.

A peripheral issue is that it is disturbing that a group with this much influence is lobbying not for farm subsidies or minimum wage increases or lower taxes, but for the interests of a foreign country. We must work hard to not let people bring up the idea of anti-semitism. This would be disturbing if it were an enormously powerful group lobbying for Britain, or France, or Canada.

Ellen: If supporting Israel was so obviously in America's best interest, then why, pray tell, is the "Israel Lobby" so large? If you're right, there are lots of Americans and Israelis wasting a lot of money lobbying Washington for nothing.

Wow, this topic sure does bring out some nutjobs.

I look forward to Steve Clemons' take on the NY Review article, which I found overly harsh towards Israel.

Disclosure: I am an American secular Jew who wishes Israel well, all the more fervently since the Palestinians began the second intifada in 2000.

But AIPAC does not speak for me. Why would anyone assume that it does? It seems to me that Americans who support Israel should take their cue from policies formulated over there, by Israeli voters and elected officials, rather than trying to act out some agenda concocted over here, be it neoconservative or millenarian.

Israelis are quite capable of coming up with their own ways of trying to solve their problems. They don't need Americans to push them to the right, and in fact they are moving towards the center, thankfully.

It would have made more sense to oppose the US-Israel alliance in 1982, when Israel was besieging Beirut, than today. So why the trend? Are some Americans more afraid of Muslim anger than they used to be?

I think that there are plenty of Americans who support Israel as a liberal democracy, a part of the Western world, and the world's only Jewish state, but who are not neocons or religious end-timers. We need to become more prominent.

After almost 40 years of occupation, Israel has finally started groping towards a way of living alongside the Arabs, rather than ruling over them. This is to be applauded and encouraged.

"I hope you have the courage to follow through. The taboo about discussing this as a policy/political issue has done a lot of damage to American national interests over the years."

That about sums it up. Ty, FSO.

To all the Israeli/AIPAC apologist who have posted on this subject.

Some advice.

#1 Do not post things that are easily debunked such as Palestines immigrating into Palestine at the same time as the Jews. The actual British census of 1936 showed 640,00 Arab Muslims, 56,000 christians and 28,000 jews. Fact.

#2 If you are Jewish and you enjoying living in the US and you have US citizenship or dual citizenship, now is the time for you to chose which country you want to live in and be loyal to...there is no such thing as serving two masters. If you chose the US then it behooves you to clean up your own house and rid yourselves of the radical Jewish/Israeli elements among yourselves in this country that lobby for Israel directly against American interest and the welfare of the American people. Otherwise you need to move to Israel or whatever other country you feel a higher loyalty to.

3# The longer the AIPAC/Israeli interest control our congress the more Americans will become aware of it, and the more it will spread to the Jewish community as a whole. Speak up now against this subervision of American policy or forever hold your peace. If you aren't part of the protest then you are part of the problem.

Uh oh, I see the jackbooted goons are out drooling their usual bullshit about "anti-semitism" on anyone that dares question the wisdom of a foreign government shaping American foreign policy through POLITICAL BRIBERY AND ESPIONAGE.

Frankly, until the south is rebuilt from the devastation of Katrina and Bush's negligence, I think we should divert the $15,139,178 PER DAY (that we send Israel) to the effort of rebuilding in Louisianna and Mississippi.

Carroll,

Are you making threats against Israel's supporters? You are accusing them of disloyalty and treason; which is what Mearsheimer and Walt are essentially doing. Anyway, it's a good time to note the following. It used to be the right that questioned the patriotism of their fellow citizens. Now we see it is the realist/left alliance making such fascist zoo noises. Anyway, you are the heir to the censor, the inquisitor, the red baiter and all that was ugly about America's past. You disgust me.

Carroll writes "If you are Jewish and you enjoying living in the US and you have US citizenship or dual citizenship, now is the time for you to chose which country you want to live in and be loyal to...there is no such thing as serving two masters."

Don't tell me what to do, and I will extend the same curtesy to you.

But thanks for proving that hatred of the Jews is behind at least some anti-Istaeli opinion here.

I guess I knew that, but it's always a shock to hear it given voice.

"Nobody likes me". Wonder why?

It would be nice to occasionally have a discussion about a conservative foreign government that sometimes agrees with US goals and sometimes doesn't without:
1) jews being blamed for controlling the world
2) hearing anti-semite screamed at ever criticism

That being said, I have met Jews in Los Angeles that have admitted to being sayan. So there are overt lobbying efforts for Israel and some more clandestine efforts.

But then again, I had a friend from France that claimed the French government asked him to gather classified information for them.

"But thanks for proving that hatred of the Jews is behind at least some anti-Istaeli opinion here."

Thats a crock of unadulterated horseshit. What, are we expected to appreciate the fact that we are sending Israel millions of dollars a day, and in return they commit false flag terrorist attacks, commit espionage against us, and bribe our politicians??? You're dreamin'. I don't want ANY government exerting such influence on our policies and our politicians.

And hey, you can take your accusations of "anti-semitism" and shove 'em where the sun don't shine. Its getting old. These God damned neo-con pukes in Washington are as thick as mollasses with AIPAC, so don't be telling me this bullshit is "good for America". HORSESHIT! These bastards, in league with Israel, have launched the biggest foreign policy debacle in the history of our nation, and we will be paying the price for decades upon decades. If you want to live under a government that has Israel's interests above our own, than why don't you shag your ass over there and give them a hand spending our money.

All of you need to start thinking in terms of defending American national interests. Yes, I know thta's a radical concept, but do it. If you start the firestorm, there will be no stopping it. The blogosphere is what can take this to the American people, who don't understand that their sons and saughter are dying in Iraq for the interests of a foreing power. If we can get this off the ground, we can change history here. I'm 80+ at this point, my generation never had these tools available. But don't neglect the fight. Patriotic Americans, you know what you need to do. Don't fight against Israel, fight agianst the Israeli Right, and try to unite the majority of the American Jewish Comminuty with the American Left.

Pissed Off:

You are entitled to feel however you want about US support for Israel, and I will react calmly. It was someone else's commands that "You American Jews have to do this, and you Jews mustn't do that" that I consider anti-Semitic.

We are not a cabal. you know. Paul Wolfowitz doesn't even know I exist.

"Pissed Off:

You are entitled to feel however you want about US support for Israel, and I will react calmly. It was someone else's commands that "You American Jews have to do this, and you Jews mustn't do that" that I consider anti-Semitic.

We are not a cabal. you know. Paul Wolfowitz doesn't even know I exist."

Posted by Hal

Perhaps you should begin to consider why it is that the only apparent defense of Israel's influence over our foreign policies seems to be from an army of worms that crawl out of the woodwork chanting "anti-semite" everytime anyone questions or laments that influence. Frankly, I think the holocaust, horror that it was, has been milked enough by Israel's leaders and the Israeli right. I see little difference between Hitler's disdain for the Jews and the Jews disdain for the Palestinians. Interesting that the Western Media is not reporting on the blockade of food going into Gaza since the Palestinians voted Hamas in, eh?? The Palestians are treated as little more than animals by the Israeli right. I am sick of the whole God damned thing. Why are WE financing the murders that beget murders that beget murders from both sides????? BOTH SIDES act like it is the fucking middle ages. We ought to go in, take away the modern weapons of both sides, and let you people have at it with lances and swords. Maybe, after both sides are dripping with the blood of their adversaries, you will figure out that blood tastes the same whether its Jewish or Palestinian. But instead, we only arm ONE SIDE with modern weapons, then we bemoan the other side's tactics and methods of killing. Dead is dead, whether by bulldozer, starvation, or suicide bomb.

And yes, there IS a cabal, and it reaches into our highest offices. Anyone that denies the close alliances and shared agendas of the neo-cons and the Israeli far right is a blithering dolt.

Once again to the Israeli apologist..

As I said, no one can serve two masters....I don't care if you are jewish and cleave to Israel or hispanic and cleave to latin America or an alien whose homeland is Mars.

Dual loyalty and promoting Israel and America as one and the same is not acceptable. Your anti-semitic slurs carry no weight in the face of that fact.

For those of you who are rabid AIPAC/Israel supporters, your problem is this.....you thought there would be no blow back to this subversion because you could claim everyone is anti-semitic.

You were wrong. It is an extreme form of cowardice on your part to hide behind the collective jewish skirts while you promote ideas destructive to America. That ploy and the anti-semitic claim no longer works. The backlash you are seeing is a healthy defense of this country by Americans against anyone who would use it for their own ideological agenda or dishonorable purposes...as it should be.

And that's the way it is going to be.

Yes,
But there are more Christian Zionists supporting Israel than there are Jewish Zionists.

The evangelical leaders are the ones that created the mail and fax campaign that stopped the roadmap dead in its tracks.

Which is interesting, as Jerry Falwell just reaffirmed his belief that all Jews are going to hell.

Blaming all Jews for Israeli influence is just bigoted. As in any group, there is a plethora of views within the Jewish, as well as the Israeli and Christian, communities.

Not all, but these: Kristol, Feith, Ladeen, Perle, Wolfowitz, Krauthammer, Brooks, ... These bastards should be tried as foreign agents then expelled.

Ah, once again we have a example of, in this case Mr. Don Blog,..who wants to equate our critism of the rabid Zionist supporters as..."Blaming ALL Jews for Israeli influence is just as bigoted.."

Note that no one has blamed ALL jews..yet that is how he characterizes it....

Let me say this again...it is the height of cowardice to hide behind the collective jewish skirts....which is exactly what he just did...
it seems to be an unbreakable habit to fall back on the bigot claim.

If the AIPAC crowd had any kind of defense to their subversions they wouldn't have to use anti-semitism now would they?

Or maybe they are anti-gentile? That might be a good talking point for the American side....shall we start using that slur?

The height of cowardice is evading an adversary's argument and accusing him of treason. We associate this sort of shambolism with Joe McCarthy. Now we associate it with Carroll, Walt, Mearsheimer and anyone so foolish as to think the neurotic apologies of an Israeli neutralist would absolve one from pointing out this paper's ugly implications.

Truth hurts.

"The height of cowardice is evading an adversary's argument and accusing him of treason. We associate this sort of shambolism with Joe McCarthy. Now we associate it with Carroll, Walt, Mearsheimer and anyone so foolish as to think the neurotic apologies of an Israeli neutralist would absolve one from pointing out this paper's ugly implications."

Posted by SCION

So, you think political bribery is GOOD for America, and we should EMBRACE lobby groups that commit acts of espionage and false flag terrorist attacks against our nation, eh????? Yeah, that's brilliant. Lets just IGNORE the ties that 3/4s of the neocon-based Bush asslickers have to AIPAC and the Israeli right.

You can take your rants about "anti-semitism" and shove them. So many of you are so obviously TASKED to spread your deflective and venomous diversions from the real issue that it is almost laughable. and you asses NEVER address issues raised. It is always the same old tired CRAP from you and your ilk, a constant mantra about anyone that questions Israel's actions being "anti-semite". This isn't about jews, its about a foreign government having too much influence on American policies and American politicians.

The logical conclusion that MUST be reached in reading this thread is that it is YOU that is "evading an adversary's argument" and making accusations as to the motive of your detractors arguments. Like I said, this bullshit from you and your ilk is getting damned old. You can take AIPAC and your Hitler-like HATRED for the Palestinians and GET THE THE HELL OUT OF OUR COUNTRY AND OUR GOVERNMENT. I am sick to death of fiinancing your human rights abuses, your wars, and your hatred with MY country's money.

The overarching problem here is that is our government is for sale to the highest bidder. We are no longer truly a democratic nation. But who will tell the people?

The Republicans, allergic to sunshine, will never investigate or address this disastrous state of affairs b/c the current situation is making too many of them even richer. Not that I'm enthusiastic about the Dems, either. Particularly with such a well-funded and vocal opposition ready to distort the real issues and mis-direct focus (quite evident on this thread).

But this entire situation is just one more example (and possibly one of the most egregious since it involves a radical shift in US policy toward unjustified pre-emptive wars and an unprecedented ongoing state of "war" against a tactic) that our government is NOT at all focused on issues of primary concern to the majority of its citizens.

Oh, and I have to echo whoever it was above who mentioned the creepy post-911 "we're all Israelis now" PR campaign (the last time I checked, Mexico and Canada were still looking pretty friendly). The whole thing seemed so obviously pre-planned and scripted, and it was incredibly pervasive; I've wondered if others also noticed though no one ever commented. The implications of such a PR campaign jive well with the facts in the LRB article -- truly very scary.

"The overarching problem here is that is our government is for sale to the highest bidder. We are no longer truly a democratic nation. But who will tell the people?

The Republicans, allergic to sunshine, will never investigate or address this disastrous state of affairs b/c the current situation is making too many of them even richer. Not that I'm enthusiastic about the Dems, either. Particularly with such a well-funded and vocal opposition ready to distort the real issues and mis-direct focus (quite evident on this thread)....."

Posted by JB

Nor should you be "enthusiastic" about the Dems. Do a google on AIPAC's political contributions, and you will find that Harry Reid is near the top of the top ten as far as dollar amounts recieved from AIPAC. Could it be no "Phase Two" was ever forthcoming, despite Reid's media charade in the Senate, because the truth about the manipulation of intelligence leading up to the imnvasion of Iraq, points, in no small part, to Isreali involvement???

Point well-taken, POA. I did note my lack of enthusiasm, rather an understatement actually (I'm well past outrage fatique).

A democracy needs publicly funded election campaigns and representatives who don't spend >80% of their time trying to get re-elected by fraternizing with powerful big-wallet lobbyists. (So clearly we don't live in a democracy.)

I'm waiting for the tipping point, actually. I think I can imagine it (but can others??)...and I'm certainly not holding my breath.

There is so much to refute in the posts of Hal, Ellen, American Jew and Laura that I don't know where to start ...

Except here: at AIPAC's conference, held this month, House Majority Leader John Boehner said “As the new House majority leader, I can assure you that under my leadership, legislation that is in any way perceived as anti-Israel will not be considered in the House of Representatives.”

And here: nominal US president George W. Bush in a speech he made this month said, "I made it clear, I'll make it clear again, that we will use military might to protect our ally, Israel."

(Forgetting to mention, as many in OUR government do often, that we do not have a formal Senate ratified defense treat with our "ally" Israel)

Imagine if Boehner had said that to the all-powerful American-Honduran Public Affairs lobby?

Or to the hundreds of Indian- Americans running around in the Pentagon feeding false information about Nepal's WMDs?

Or to the Canadian-Americans (that's redundant, eh?) in Cheney's office who hide their true sympathies by changing their name from something like "Ian Foster" to I. Lewis Liebowitz? Or is it I. Lewis Leibowitz?

That is after they cleverly learn out to pronounce "out" correctly and throw away their fur hats with the ear flaps in an attempt to hide their origins?

Or the lobbyist with strong ties to Poland who managed to funnel money from Native American tribes to the Polish settlers' movement in the Czech Republic?

The attacks on "The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy", the financial black mail of Harvard, and the almost utter silence of the Democratic anti-war blogs, many run by Jewish-Americans, on the topic show just how powerful the pro-Israel lobby is -- this case proves itself.

How many more Americans will die because of it?

How many Iraqis -or is there no such thing as an Iraqi since Iraq too is an artificial construct like the non-existent Palestine?

How many Iranians, then Pakistanis, then Indians, Chinese, Russians, etc., when Israel's wars inflame the world?

I too have done a lot of research on the pro-Israel lobbies, including the *Christian* Zionist movement: at this moment I think it is the most dangerous in the world because of its influence on an attack on Iran.

The professors are two very brave men, let's hope people of peace worldwide will hear their words and demand change.

Interesting to see the "balanced" way the Washington Post covered this controversy.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/24/AR2006032402147.html

In the Post, Juan Cole is linked with David Duke as the only quoted supporters of the Mearsheimer/Walt essay. No mention of the Levy article. To show how out of the mainstream the thesis is, the Post writes: "the Kennedy School discreetly removed its logo from the paper, and the document now features a more detailed and prominent disclaimer."

If those pundits and former political officials who privately see some merit in the thesis don't speak up, this brave essay is going to be buried.

What those blind, debate-stifling American supporters of the Israeli right don't realize is that the failure to allow a real debate on the essay increases the likelihood in the future of an ugly, populist backlash led by someone to the right of Pat Buchanan.