Any chance Mr. Levy can debate Alan Derhowitz on the Israel Lobby piece? I would love to hear Dershowitz claim that a real Israeli doesn't know what he's talking about!

Please invite both of them to your foundation.

Suggestion for Mr. Levy: Read up and study Israel Shamir's writings and consider the possibility of one secular state where the requirement for citizenship is based on humanness, rather than some outmoded idea of racial exclusiveness. The formerly indigenous population could return to ancestral homes. Jews, Muslims and Christians could interact in peaceful coexistence just like they did before a bunch of special people came charging in, armed to the teeth, saying essentially, this is ours and only ours. Read Livia Rokach: Israel's Sacred Terrorism, study based on Moshe Sharett's personal diary. Maybe that's been your problem all along.

Soon assimilation and intermarriage (EGADS!!) would make for a calmer society. That happens to be the manner in which most modern states are set up.

Question:

Does anyone plan on talking to the Palestine side?

I have read (maybe even here) that there is a new guy in town who represents the PLO, fromerly posted to London,. where he was highly thought of....I can't remember his name (damnit) but saw him recently in a debate with his israeli counterpart and was impressed.

Why do we never hear from the "other side" in all these "idea and think tank" sessions?

Another sign of the power of the Israeli lobby?...no talking while Arab?

Another question...for Steve

While in Israel did you visit Gaza or any settlements or Palestine proper?

Have any knowledge of the Palestine conditions now.

Thanks for your note Carroll -- While I was in Israel, I went to Jericho and Ramallah which are both under Palestinian Control -- and I met the mayor in the largest Israeli settlement in the Occupied territories....which is under Israeli control but technically in Palestinian territory.

best,
Steve Clemons

Dershowitz's reply to Walt & Mearsheimer is at

http://www.ksg.harvard.edu/research/working_papers/dershowitzreply.pdf

There are a great number of "real" Israelis who could dispute Levy.

Laura,
I disagree with Levy too, but as an Israeli myself, I want to say that Levy is no less a compatriot of mine for being wrong. He immigrated to Israel over a decade ago, and has served in the IDF. He doesn't represent the majority view, but then neither would someone from Likud. I like Kadima myself, but the fact that that party got the most votes doesn't mean that only people representing its views are real Israelis.

Now that I've chastened Laura, I do want to raise the question whether there would have been a post at TWN about Dershowitz's response. Maybe there would have been, but in any case I'm certain that far, far fewer people will read that response than will read W's & M's sloppy article. ..And about that Open Source debate yesterday, it's odd that Dershowitz and other critics weren't invited. Yes, Drezner was there, but though his criticism that the paper is monocausal science is important, there are two other main lines of criticism that weren't represented: i. the paper's anti-Semitic tropes and ii. the poor scholarship that went into it, which Dershowitz has now exposed. The two are related: what reason can there have been for otherwise solid scholars to have deviated from their usual standards? Is anti-Semitism the only possible explanation? No. Is it a strong candidate? I don't see how it can be excluded as one.

Dershowitz?
Be careful what you ask for.His debate MO can descend into an unhinged spittle-flecked personal attack mode once he really gets going.

BTW...the constant accusations of anti-semitism are edging into "crying wolf" territory.

The Umbrage doth protest too much.

But, by all means, keep it up. Nothing like focusing attention on the issue of The Lobby.

After all, in the immortal words of the indicted ex- AIPACer Steve Rosen:

"a lobby is like a night flower: it thrives in the dark and dies in the sun".

I must protest, politely, of course, anyone claiming that Alan Dershowitz is qualified to point out shoddy scholarship in another person's work. All you have to do is read his dreadful "The Case for Israel," which repeated many of Joan Peters' discredited claims from "In Time Immemorial." (For example, Palestinians "moved in" only after Zionist settlers arrived. Disgraceful!) To quote our erstwhile president, when it comes to Dershowitz, "bring it on!" He's only convincing if he's the only one talking.

Typo: Peters book was called "From Time Immemorial."

Em, someone with a high school degree can point out the shoddy scholarship in Walt's and Mearsheimer's paper. Dershowitz isn't the only one who's done so. If I remember correctly Mr. Clemons said, in his Open Sources interview yesterday, that lots of people opining about W's & M's paper hadn't read it. There's now been a rebuttal by Dershowitz posted at the KSG site. I've posted a linke to it above. Before you comment on Dershowitz and his MO, I suggest you read the rebuttal. ..Otherwise Clemons will be in the awkward position of having his fans at his blog doing exactly the same thing when it comes to arguments they're not disposed to agree with that he has accused others of doing with respect to arguments he does agree with. ..So read Dershowitz for Clemons' sake, if for no other reason, comrades.

Oh, and here's a list of responses to W & M, just so you'll see that Dershowitz isn't exactly alone:

http://www.danieldrezner.com/archives/002669.html

I think you really ought to see the result of Israeli atrocities in the occupied territories instead of a couple of repressed areas. Why not check out where Rachel Corrie was murdered? Why not check out Jenin? Why not check out some of the worst check points?
Frankly, you bias makes your reporting on this issue nugatory.
http://amleft.blogspot.com/archives/2006_04_01_amleft_archive.html#114442484080286962
UK Jury Rules James Miller's Death "Murder"
A coroner's inquest has ruled that the killing of the film maker working on the project that became the HBO documentary Death in Gaza was intentional: (from Haaretz)
James Miller, 34, was shot in the neck by a soldier in the town of Rafah, along the Gaza-Egypt border, in May 2003 while filming a documentary about the impact of violence on children in the region."

Mike,
It's odd that you don't mention Palestinain atrocities. Do you think _those_ are justified? The list of those isn't shorter than yours.

Israel is stronger and gets more US support, and those two facts pretty much decide the matter for some on the Left.

That's unfortunate.

Another W & M-related matter. (Sorry to be taking up so much space on this thread.) Remember the demotion issue that was raised at this blog on March 31? To his credit, Mr Clemons published Walt's clarification about that the following day, April 1. The FT, on April 1, published an editorial saying, among other silly things, that Walt's position as dean was in question because of the paper. That was only corrected by Walt in the FT's letter page the following day, April 2. Will as many people read the correction letter as read the editorial? Not likely. Could the FT have taken a bit of trouble and waited till it heard directly from Walt about this matter? Yes. Mr Clemons could have waited as well, but at least when the correction came he published it in as prominent a format (giving it its own post) as the original post, and anyway I don't hold blogs--anyone's; it's not personal, Mr Clemons--to the same standards to which I hold big newspapers.
But y'all think _pro-_ Israel bias in the media is the problem, ay? Gimme a break.

Final point for the evening, I promise:

whatever Left-of-Likud policy we want, whether it's Kadima's unilateral withdrawal or Labor's negotiations via Abu Mazen, we should hope Amir Peretz _won't_ be Defense Minister, since he's not the sort of ex-top military brass person who could pull something like that off. In terms of Right-wing opposition, Oslo was difficult for Rabin and withdrawal from Gaza was difficult enough for Sharon even though both of them were former generals. Maybe if at least PM Olmert were himself former top brass, Peretz would have the cover to pull difficult policy off as Defense Min. But that's not the case.

My comment re Dershowitz is in reference to his public appearances. Period.

You presume to tell me that I have to even read more of his wacky drivel before posting my opinions of his public persona?

LOL!

No thanks, I much prefer my 5+ years and counting of reading Israel & Friends sources for info on The Lobby, etc. Learned oodles and oodles of great stuff. The period of the year long run-up to the attack on Iraq was just chock full of interesting details about US/Israeli "common interests" and activities.......

You know what they say: "The closer the bone, the sweeter the meat".

PS The above is a bit of culinary folk wisdom that lends itself well to the practice of gathering info from "original sources".

Lalla,

"You know what they say: 'The closer the bone, the sweeter the meat.'"

Now you've done it. There's a lot I can forgive, but it's hard to forgive you for planting in my mind the image of an insane person cooking meat.

..Though I suppose even that activity has the virtue of being something other than posting comments here. ..Or do you do both at once, i.e., do you cook meat while commenting here? I beg you: if you find that your cooking suffers from your doing both things at once as much as your comments do and you must decide which activity to give your full attention to...let it be the cooking.

Shared values ? Give me a break.

(Don't think most Americans would find common cause with this crap: at the very least we have a history of trying to right our racist wrongs)

"Israel will face a difficult problem: How to act with regard to the snowballing economic problems in the PA. The opinions on this issue range between two extremes. The first approach taken is that although the Palestinian public voted against the corrupt Fatah, it knew that enthroning Hamas - which supports the continuation of the war against Israel and its destruction - comes with a price. The argument is that it is absurd for Israel to improve the lives of the Palestinians under Hamas rule and to participate, indirectly, in paying the salaries of Hamas officials.

At the other end of the spectrum are those who argue that precisely for security reasons. it is necessary to avoid the destruction of the Palestinian economy. In their opinion, Israel must not get into a situation in which it is facing masses of hungry people. Therefore it has prepared for itself a "yardstick of humanitarian decline." Experts in various fields have dealt with this. One such yardstick was prepared in the office of the coordinator of activities in the territories, Major General Yosef Mishlav. Another was devised in the intelligence division of the General Staff, headed by Major General Amos Yadlin.

In any case, a humanitarian yardstick has been presented to the Americans."
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/703678.html

What say you about "humanitarian yardsticks", Adam Ereli?

Hamas' covenant:

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/mideast/hamas.htm

Here's the easiest way to bust "just": Get him to answer this question: What inalienable rights do Palestinians have that Israel must recognize? Notice that pro-Zionists never address this. If both parties are not required to engage in mutual recognition, then, thank goodness the "peace process" is failing. We've seen enough Palestinian Quislings. It's time for a Palestinian Ben-Gurion.

Mythbuster,
Em, sorry: you haven't busted me. (And it's odd that you refer to me in the third person if mutual recognition is a central issue for you. Why not address me directly?) "What rights do the Palestinians have the Israel might recognize?" The right to their own state; the right to national self-determination. Not, though, to the whole pie. And not _instead of,_ but _side-by-side_ the Jewish right to national s-d. Rabin, Barak, Sharon, and Olmert have all recognized the Palestinian right to s-d. It took some of them longer than others and you might say some or all of them took actions that weren't consistent with recognizing that right. But then, neither have the Palestinians been playing nice. It's not clear what you mean by the need for a Palestinian Ben-Gurion or who you mean by Palestinian Quislings. But if you mean by that Hamas should recognize Israel and renounce terrorism, I'm with you all the way, brother (or sister; I can't tell from the alias.)

An interview w/PM-elect Olmert:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/07/AR2006040702170.html

(a secret: the piece appears in tomorrow's Wash. Post, but I have access to it not because of some behind the scenes Lobby string pulling, but through a special, special mechanism called (drumroll) Google News))

Incidentally, recognizing Palestinian rights in the way I did in responding to Mythbuster is consistent with Zionism. In the first comment in this thread, Mythbuster suggests a debate between Dershowitz and Levy. That would be a debate between two Zionists. ..Which would be fine by me--because there's a lot two Zionists can disagree about--but the point is that if any of you think Zionism's bad but at the same time you like Levy, something's gotta give, 'cause Levy's not just an Israeli but a Zionist as well. As I am myself.

Just: I will address you directly. You didn't, of course, answer the challenge, you just parrot out meaningless platitudes....Mutual recognition requires SPECIFICITY. That means Zionists must acknowledge (in tandem with Palestinian concessions) that a Palestinian born in Nablus has a much right to live their as any Jew in Tel Aviv; that "population transfers" are never morally justified; and that Israel is not special, i.e., the same international law that applies to every other people applies to them. Hamas should make no unilateral concessions, ever. Until Zionists acknowledge these type of conditions, the "peace process" is phony; it should fail; and it would be better to wait for a generation when Palestine is surrounded by nuclear-armed Muslim states, and American power in the Middle East in on the wane. In fact, no talking is better. Israel has already taken too much land; the two-state solution is dead. It would be better to battle Zionist Apartheid non-violently. Non-violent rejectionism is the greatest force in the world.

Mythbuster: Look, we obviously won't persuade each other, but I don't think the two state solution is dead, though it's true the conflict isn't likely to be solved any time soon. And though I disagree with you about "Zionist Apartheid," my disagreement with you matters less than Hamas' disagreement with you. Good luck persuading _them_ to resist non-violently.
Don't forget their charter:
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/mideast/hamas.htm

David Ben Gurion: If I were an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country . . . We come from Israel, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that". .

icebreaker,
Well, I'm no Ben-Gurion, but I like to think that if _I_ were an Arab leader, I _would_ make terms with Israel, as Sadat and King Hussein bravely did.
There are 22 Arab countries. I _want_ there to be a 23rd. But next to mine (which is the Jews' _only_ state) not instead of it.
Anyway, I hope you'll agree that whether there's acceptance or non-acceptance, nothing justifies a charter like Hamas':

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/mideast/hamas.htm

Quote from the document's preamble:

"'Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it' (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory)."

--
It's not just about what Arab leaders can or can't accept. It's also about what I can't accept as a Jew. (And what others oughtn't to accept as decent human beings.) I can't accept dealing with an organization whose charter starts (presumably in order to give a foretaste of the vile things that come in the rest of the document) like that.

..But in some sectors of public opinion in the West, things are upside down, and the view is that standing up to _Israel_ is showing backbone. Good luck with that strategy, those of you to whom that description applies. I think there are abundant grounds for skepticism re. whether it will work. Re. whether, if successful, it will ultimately achieve anything political progressives ought to desire.

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