Kimche is making an interesting point in his article, and no doubt his extensive experience with foreign/security affairs and intelligence undergird his perspective--one of active pragmatism and not ossified ideology. But in point of fact, "prying" away Syria from Iran is an incredibly difficult task and there's a certain element of wishful thinking there. The fact that Bashar is secular doesn't make his country's 20 year alliance with Iran any less real. I also am not at all convinced that Hezbollah will abandon its resistance to Israel simply because Syria strikes a deal (as unlikely as that is). I applaud Kimche's creative thinking, but clearly in this case necessity is the mother of invention, and the necessity is the sorry state of our standing in that part of the world.

Despite my skepticism here, I view such efforts to think creatively as a good thing on balance. If only our government would stop thinking of itself as a 40 year old, divorced virgin and understand that it can actually speak to people it has strong disagreements with, we'd all be better off. What in God's name are they afraid of? After all, we can blow anyone off the face of the map any time we choose; do they actually think no one realizes that? So why not talk to anyone, anytime to advance our own understanding and security?

When our "principles" get in the way of peacefully resolving avoidable conflict (not all conflicts--sometimes you do have to draw the line) the principles need to get reassessed. Period.

BMR

Steve,

A word of advice, when one clicks on a link or image on your site it should open a new tab (for those using Firefox, IE7 or other browswers that feature tabbed browsing) or open a new/separate window.

You need to keep your site up and open so that readers can easily come back to it after consuming the linked content.

Lastly, please pick a date.

Best,

C

I agree with BMR above. Kimche does not make an interesting point about "prying" Syria from Iran, but I also wonder whether that is possible. More importantly, I doubt that Syria or Iran will be able to pacify Hezbollah at this point in time.

Not that there is any chance that Mr. Haniya and his allies will ever make peace with Israel - they refuse to even recognize its right to exist -but, when Palestinian militant factions are still kidnapping innocent AP photographers, it shows how depraved some of their population is as well.
here is the story:

http://tinyurl.com/ycs8hu

I have witnessed a predominance of anti-Israel sentiment expressed in the comments on this blog. certainly some of it IS justified. But, by the same token, some of it is NOT. To accuse the Israelis of genocide is, in my opinion, reckless and untrue. Israel is engaged in a war with Palestinians... and many other Arab countries, which daily teach their children to hate and to kill. I agree that many of Israel's policies HAVE been misguided and certainly innefective in transforming the situation for the better. but, to demonize the Israelis alone is unfair.

Further, I've always seen GWB's policies as ANYTHING but pro-Israel. The U.S's disengagement and the subsequent collapse of the Israeli/Palestinian peace negotiations have been everything BUT good for Israel.

And the ocuupation of Iraq?! NOBODY can make the case that the middle east is more stable today.

GWB and this group of Republicans have done more damage to America and to world stability than any american administration or ruling party in my lifetime!

PLEASE VOTE THESE MANIACS OUT!!!

No sign of these developments on the Korean peninsula in domestic media so far:

http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200610/200610200005.html

Winnipeger wrote:
"I agree that many of Israel's policies HAVE been misguided and certainly innefective in transforming the situation for the better. but, to demonize the Israelis alone is unfair."

It sure seems that those in power in Israel, which one must include the Mossad, are not the kind of people who are creative world problem solvers or peacemakers.

I wonder if the former Mossad Deputy Head would know and approve of the following story from yesterday's news?

"Israel admits phosphorous bombs used in Lebanon"
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article1919396.ece

Who besides the Bush Admin and Israel are so openly defying international law and the Geneva Conventions these days?

"Who besides the Bush Admin and Israel are so openly defying international law and the Geneva Conventions these days?"

Hezbollah
Palestinian militants
Islamic fundamentalists/terrorists
Syria
Iran

...Just to name a few.

Dear Winnipeger

Israel should be put on the list of terrorist countries right along with the other axis of evils. There isn't enough lipstick in the world to make this pig look like anything but what it is. They are no better than any other terrorist and in some respects worse because their agression is motivated by sheer greed for resources and desire to 'expand" their state.
As far as teaching children to hate, no one beats the Israelis for racism toward anyone not jewish.

I suggest you bone up on exactly what genocide is:

The international legal definition of the crime of genocide is found in Articles II and III of the 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide.

Article II describes two elements of the crime of genocide:

1) the mental element, meaning the "intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such", and

2) the physical element which includes five acts described in sections a, b, c, d and e. A crime must include both elements to be called "genocide."

Article III described five punishable forms of the crime of genocide: genocide; conspiracy, incitement, attempt and complicity.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Excerpt from the Convention on the Prevention and
Punishment of Genocide (For full text click here)
"Article II: In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;

(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Article III: The following acts shall be punishable:

(a) Genocide;

(b) Conspiracy to commit genocide;

(c) Direct and public incitement to commit genocide;

(d) Attempt to commit genocide;

(e) Complicity in genocide. "

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is a crime to plan or incite genocide, even before killing starts, and to aid or abet genocide: Criminal acts include conspiracy, direct and public incitement, attempts to commit genocide, and complicity in genocide.
Punishable Acts The following are genocidal acts when committed as part of a policy to destroy a group’s existence:

Killing members of the group includes direct killing and actions causing death.

Causing serious bodily or mental harm includes inflicting trauma on members of the group through widespread torture, rape, sexual violence, forced or coerced use of drugs, and mutilation.

Deliberately inflicting conditions of life calculated to destroy a group includes the deliberate deprivation of resources needed for the group’s physical survival, such as clean water, food, clothing, shelter or medical services. Deprivation of the means to sustain life can be imposed through confiscation of harvests, blockade of foodstuffs, detention in camps, forcible relocation or expulsion into deserts.

Prevention of births includes involuntary sterilization, forced abortion, prohibition of marriage, and long-term separation of men and women intended to prevent procreation.

Forcible transfer of children may be imposed by direct force or by fear of violence, duress, detention, psychological oppression or other methods of coercion. The Convention on the Rights of the Child defines children as persons under the age of 18 years.

Genocidal acts need not kill or cause the death of members of a group. Causing serious bodily or mental harm, prevention of births and transfer of children are acts of genocide when committed as part of a policy to destroy a group’s existence.

The law protects four groups - national, ethnical, racial or religious groups.

A national group means a set of individuals whose identity is defined by a common country of nationality or national origin.

An ethnical group is a set of individuals whose identity is defined by common cultural traditions, language or heritage.

A racial group means a set of individuals whose identity is defined by physical characteristics.

A religious group is a set of individuals whose identity is defined by common religious creeds, beliefs, doctrines, practices, or rituals.

(AND PAY ATTENTION TO THE FOLLOWING TWO PARAGRAPHS,BECAUSE THEY ARE NAILS IN ISRAEL'S COFFIN IF THEY EVER GET TO THE ICC)

1)The crime of genocide has two elements: intent and action. “Intentional” means purposeful. Intent can be proven directly from statements or orders. But more often, it must be inferred from a "SYSTEMATIC PATTERN" of coordinated acts.

2)Intent is different from motive. Whatever may be the motive for the crime (land expropriation, national security, territorrial integrity, etc.), if the perpetrators commit acts intended to destroy a group, even part of a group, it is genocide.

The phrase "in whole or in part" is important. Perpetrators need not intend to destroy the entire group. Destruction of only part of a group (such as its educated members, or members living in one region) is also genocide. Most authorities require intent to destroy a substantial number of group members – mass murder. But an individual criminal may be guilty of genocide even if he kills only one person, so long as he knew he was participating in a larger plan to destroy the group.

For a more detailed description of the crimes described in Article II (Rome Statute Article 6) see the Elements of the Crime of Genocide agreed upon by the International Criminal Court Preparatory Commission in June 2000.

Carroll,

I don't have the time to read through your entire diatribe, but I would like to refute two points:

You wrote:

They (Israel) are no better than any other terrorist and in some respects worse because their agression is motivated by sheer greed for resources and desire to 'expand" their state"

I completely disagree with you on this central issue. Israel's aggression is largely motivated by SELF-DEFENSE! I'm incredulous that you would omit this fact.

Secondly, you wrote:

"As far as teaching children to hate, no one beats the Israelis for racism toward anyone not jewish."

This is pure claptrap BS! What are you basing your opinion on? the Protocols of the Elders of Zion?!

This is a despicable and deplorable lie, Carroll! One that says to me that you have crossed the line from genuine disagreement with Israeli policy into flat-out anti-semitism and hatred of Jews.

Have you ever visited Israel!? Have you ever visited an Israeli school or a Jewish day school in North America?! further, Have you ever visited a madrassah? Do I really need to link to the widespread and well reported criticism of the latter?

Based on your comments above, you deserve to be IGNORED and repudiated by readers of this blog!

One other point I forgot to mention, Carroll, in response to this outrageous claim you made:

As far as teaching children to hate, no one beats the Israelis for racism toward anyone not jewish."

Do you realize that 20% of Israelis are NOT Jewish?!

So I guess, based on your "logic," 20% of Israelis are teaching their kids to hate themselves.

Speaking of the Mossad, it reminds me of another reason why I am so enthused about the rise of Barack Obama, replacing Hillary and Bill as the leaders of the Democrats:

Israel’s Mossad was taping Bill’s and Monica’s phone sex!

Gordon Thomas, in his book Gideon’s Spies, (p.103) says that the Mossad, Israel’s intelligence service, was taping Bill’s phone sex with Monica! Danny Yatom, the head of the Mossad, sent a spy team in March, 1997, to Washington D.C. based on reports “that President Clinton was repeatedly indulging in phone-sex calls with a former White House aide, Monica Lewinsky … Knowing the White House was totally protected by electronic counter-measures, the yahalomin team focused on Lewinsky’s apartment. They began to intercept explicit phone calls from the president to Lewinsky. The recordings were couriered by diplomatic bag to Tel Aviv.”
Ken Starr in the Starr Report says that on March 29, 1997 “[Bill] told [Monica] that he suspected a foreign embassy … was taping his telephones. If anyone ever asked about their phone sex, she should say that they knew that their calls were being monitored all day long, and the phone sex was a put on.” [Gideon’s Spies, p.104]
Also, on 3-29-97, besides discussing the fact that their phone sex was being taped by foreign intelligence, Bill climaxed in oral sex with Monica and he manually stimulated Monica to 4 orgasms. [Toobin, A Vast Conspiracy, p. 111]

Dear Winnipeger...in reply to

"I completely disagree with you on this central issue. Israel's aggression is largely motivated by SELF-DEFENSE! I'm incredulous that you would omit this fact."

...The "self defense" arguement is is the number one most worn out excuse. It's a world joke that no one believes any longer.

"As far as teaching children to hate, no one beats the Israelis for racism toward anyone not jewish."
This is a despicable and deplorable lie, Carroll! One that says to me that you have crossed the line from genuine disagreement with Israeli policy into flat-out anti-semitism and hatred of Jews."

..Oh yada,yada,yada...anti semite is also the number one worn out slur for anyone calling a spade a spade on Israel. Frankly my dear I don't care if you are Jewish, Budhist or Presbyterian..according to accepted international law and the morals of 90% of the universe you are a terrorist state.

Let me repeat this...Israel is a terrorist state, anyone supporting their occupation/aquisition for real estate in Palestine and their actions in Lebanon is a terrorist enabler.

mmmm, kim-chee

...and let me repeat this, Carroll:

anyone who would post the following IS anti-semitic AND stupid

"As far as teaching children to hate, no one beats the Israelis for racism toward anyone not jewish."

Don't bother responding. You've already destroyed another thread on this blog.

"according to accepted international law and the morals of 90% of the universe you are a terrorist state."

Funny. I thought i was a person!

Isn't your kindergarten nap time over about now?

Though you don't need my support Carroll, you defend yourself well enough, I offer it anyway.

Crimes against humanity are crimes against humanity.

Upwards of 4 million bomblets dispersed on south lebanon has got nothing to do with self-defense. Burning flesh with phosphorus weapons has got nothing to do with self-defense.

I know this has very little to do with Steve's post but it is difficult to let the comments of some posters pass.

"I completely disagree with you on this central issue. Israel's aggression is largely motivated by SELF-DEFENSE! I'm incredulous that you would omit this fact."

A long discredited myth, plausible only to those unwilling to apply the same standards to both sides.

To claim the invasion of Lebanon was self-defense rather than an attempt to destroy Palestinian identity stretches credulity. Even most Israelis aren't that brazen. Also I would have thought that the settlements alone proved Israel is as much interested in land as it is in self-defense.

If not how about;

Ben Gurion's letter to his son Amos describing how they would seize land outside the original boundaries of Israel by any means possible. The Haganah's Plan Dalet, declassified long after partition, describes how Ben Gurion's seizure was implemented.

Or the fact that Begin and Rabin both admitted that Nasser didn't want war in 1967 seriously undermining their claim that the attack was 'peemptive'. It was no more 'preemptive' than the Arab attack in 1973.

Then we have Dayan's widely publicized interview with an Israeli journalist and friend in which he describes how, in 1967, Israel deliberately provoked Syria at the urging of Kibbutz residences who wanted Syrian land.

The number of such examples is endless....

"Upwards of 4 million bomblets dispersed on south lebanon has got nothing to do with self-defense. Burning flesh with phosphorus weapons has got nothing to do with self-defense."

As horrifying and disgusting as they are, both have EVERYTHING to do with war... and self defense.

Hezbollah crosses the border and kidnaps Israeli soldiers? Hezbollah launches thousand of rockets into Israel from South Lebanon? Israel drops bomblets in South lebanon to keep their enemies at bay.

Phosphorus bombs dropped on Hezbollah fighters in Lebanon? The same fighters who were and are waging war against Israel? This alone is NOT a breach of the Geneva convention. only if these munitions are intentioanlly dropped upon civilians or against military forces in civilian areas is a military breaching the Geneva Convention.

Not that hezbollah or Israel's enemies give a fu*k about the Geneva convention. But, I'm sure that none of Israel's critics cares about that reality.

"Hezbollah crosses the border and kidnaps Israeli soldiers? Hezbollah launches thousand of rockets into Israel from South Lebanon? Israel drops bomblets in South lebanon to keep their enemies at bay."

The operating assumption seems to be that Israel can 'defend' itself kidnapping whoever they see fit and hold them without charge indefinitely, but their opponent can't.

Clear enough.

"To claim the invasion of Lebanon was self-defense rather than an attempt to destroy Palestinian identity stretches credulity"

Palestinian identity in the Shia south of lebanon?!?!

If you cannot see the OBVIOUS, then there is no point in debating you or others.

let me repeat, this past summer, Israel was invaded and attacked by Hezbollah soldiers, supported by Syria and Iran. the Lebanese governemnt was unable to control its borders and suppress Hezbollah and Israel was forced to do so.

It always amazes me how people blame Israel alone for problems in the middle east - as if her neighbors are purely sympathetic, peaceful, rational actors.

"Palestinian identity in the Shia south of lebanon?!?!"

I was referring to the '82 Lebanese invasion but given that they're have been so many, your confusion is understandable.

"let me repeat, this past summer, Israel was invaded and attacked by Hezbollah soldiers, supported by Syria and Iran. the Lebanese governemnt was unable to control its borders and suppress Hezbollah and Israel was forced to do so."

And let me point out that earlier in the year Israel shot across the border and killed an unarmed teenage Lebanese shepherd, Ibrahim Rhayyel. and that Hezbollah vowed to retaliate.

Dear Winnipeger

Want some more?

Let's start at the begining shall we? Which would be:

On Article 49 - Gulity

Article 49

The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.

And moving right on thru the list of the:

Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War

On Article 33 - Guilty

Article 33
No protected person may be punished for an offence he or she has not personally committed. Collective penalties and likewise all measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited.

On Article 53 - Guilty

Article 53

Any destruction by the Occupying Power of real or personal property belonging individually or collectively to private persons, or to the State, or to other public authorities, or to social or cooperative organizations, is prohibited, except where such destruction is rendered absolutely necessary by military operations.

On Article 55 - Guilty

Article 55

To the fullest extent of the means available to it the Occupying Power has the duty of ensuring the food and medical supplies of the population; it should, in particular, bring in the necessary foodstuffs, medical stores and other articles if the resources of the occupied territory are inadequate.

FIRST PROTOCAL(S)

On Articles 48 & 51 - Guilty

Article 48 — Basic rule
Parties shall at all times distinguish between the civilian population and combatants and accordingly shall direct their operations only against military objectives.

Article 51 — Protection of the civilian population
Indiscriminate attacks are prohibited. Indiscriminate attacks are:
(a) Those which are not directed at a specific military objective;
(b) Those which employ a method or means of combat which cannot be directed at a specific military objective

Among others, the following types of attacks are to be considered as indiscriminate:
(a) An attack by bombardment which treats as a single military objective a number of clearly separated and distinct military objectives located in a city, town, village or other area containing a similar concentration of civilians;
(b) An attack which may be expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated.

Need I go on? You are a terrorist state guilty of war crimes. Period.

Perhaps we should refrain from muddying this thread any more than we already have, but I do want to ask you why you think Israel shot across the border, killing Ibrahim? Was their objective to kill an unarmed shepherd or did they mistake him for one of the hoards of militants who have sworn to destroy Israel and who have been firing over the northern border for years?

Further, I believe it is a mistake and misleading to cite this isolated event as Hezbollah's ratioanale for retaliating and waging war against Israel.

Hezbollah has sworn to destroy Israel and American interests for many, many years. Wake up.

Carroll,

with all due respect, I AM NOT A "TERRORIST STATE."

You may want to brush up on your usage of nouns.

since your teacher didn't do his/her job, I'll offer you the following definition from the dictionary:

State (steyt) noun

a politically unified people occupying a definite territory; nation

Back to Steve's subject.

As to David Kimche's "enlightened views"...

"Should we? Can we pick up the Syrian gauntlet? Only within a package deal involving the United States, and Lebanon. The Americans must first be persuaded that prying Syria away from the clutches of Iran is an objective worth pursuing. The advantages for us are manifest: defusing the dangerous Iranian-led axis in the North, expelling the Hamas and Jihad extremists from Damascus, paving the way for relations with the rest of the Arab world. There is, of course, the Golan. Successive prime ministers, including Binyamin Netanyahu, had been willing to compromise our position on the Golan for the sake of peace with Syria. Future negotiations with the weak Assad could probably produce better results for us than previous efforts"

Number One...Kimche should be thinking "How to Pry Israel off Palestine" first. There is nothing in his "enlightened view that isn't more of their Isrmerica empire delusion. Just like tiny brain rats who stimulate their pleasure centers to their death, the Israelis are going to punch this "regional empire" button right up to the day they expire.

Number Two..65% or more of American are not interested any more stragetizing/ minuplating "package deals" with the US on how to provide "manifest advantages" to Israel under the "guise" of the terrier war since they responsible for 90% of their own problems and a major cause of terrorism in the ME.

Number Three...I am seriously thinking of forming my own Soccer-Mom's Mossad, ripping the intestines out of these blooding sucking Israeli parasites and neo pond scum and shoving them down their throats if they don't quit fucking with my children's country and goverment.

"Israel's aggression is largely motivated by SELF-DEFENSE!"

Yeah, thats why there are literally hundreds of thousands of cluster bombs littering the Lebanese countryside, fired into Lebanon when a cease fire was imminent. The assertion that this kind of action is committed in "self-defense" is a damned lie. It is just the same as the issue as to why Israel bulldozes Palestinian orchards and farmlands. Such an action is NOT an act of self defense. It is an act designed to demoralize the Palestinians, and rob them of their substenance and livelyhoods. To frame it in any other manner is dishonest and despicable. The "sound bombs" that Israel uses at night are just as despicable, and can IN NO MANNER be described as a "defensive weapon". Anyone that is informed and aware of the actual tactics being employed by Israel cannot piossibly cite this "self-defense" horseshit in clear conscience. To cite such blatant falsehood supplies us with a direct window hrough which we can view your character and your integrity. I challenge you to explain to me how the sound bombs can be described as "defensive weapons", or how cluttering olive orchards with thousands of cluster bombs can be described as "an act of defense".

OK, read the following, and tell me how this tactic can, by ANY stretch of the imagination, be considered "defensive".

Targeting Gaza’s Children with Sound Bombs

By Mike Whitney

07/05/06 "Information Clearing House" - -

http://tinyurl.com/y8ethr

"The killing, abduction, and suppression of the Palestinians by the Israeli military forces do not conform to any reason or logic; rather they flout the Jewish beliefs." Official Statement of the Iranian Jewish Community
The photographs of bombed-out buildings, burned-down power plants, and blown-up bridges only tell half the story of Israel’s terror-war on the people in Gaza. Absent from the pictures is the screeching sound of the F-16s flying overhead day-and-night producing the explosive sonic booms that shatter windows and terrify children. Israel has been remarkably successful in its psychological war against the Palestinians; exacting a heavy toll against the people for whom it was designed, Palestinian children. As author John Pilger notes in a recent article "The War on Children"

"Dr. Khalid Dahlan, a psychiatrist who heads a children's community health project, told me, 'The statistic I personally find unbearable is that 99.4 percent of the children we studied suffer trauma … 99.2 percent had their homes bombarded; 97.5 percent were exposed to tear gas; 96.6 percent witnessed shooting; a third saw family members or neighbors injured or killed.’"
Dr. Dahlan’s findings are consistent with other studies which show that at least 72.8% of children in the occupied territories suffer some form of trauma from exposure to random explosions and violence. The result has been a steady up-tick in the number of children who suffer from long-term effects of Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) a condition which can have a destructive effect on mental development and create adults that are excessively nervous, needy or depressed. As Pilger avers, "These children suffer unrelenting nightmares and 'night terrors’ and the dichotomy of having to cope with these conditions."

Israel’s sonic blasts are part of a larger psy-ops war that is aimed at directly at children; it has no other conceivable purpose. The explosions have no military value except to attack the fragile psyche of the most vulnerable and sensitive. As the survey indicates, Israel’s plan has succeeded quite admirably. In fact, Israel is so pleased with the results of its psy-ops terror-campaign that it has developed "sound bombs" which are intended to create widespread fear and trauma.

This new weapon has been successfully deployed in Gaza "inducing miscarriages and traumatizing children". Israel is aware of these effects and continues to use the weapon regardless of the human suffering it causes.

Just think of the money that could be saved if the Palestinians can just be kept in abeyance by producing a constant state of trepidation.

This appears to be the rationale of the Israeli leadership, who continue to explore the frontiers of psycho-anxiety weaponry.

What other possible reason could there be for sound bombs?

The moral implications of targeting children with mind-damaging weaponry is profound and alarming. To my thinking, it measures up quite impressively with the depraved acts of 9-11. Perhaps, it even exceeds them. After all, is there a more heinous crime than purposefully hurting children?

In recent weeks we have seen numerous incidents where children were killed or wounded by Israeli bombs or missiles. The most widely-publicized of these was the attack on the beach in Gaza where an entire family was killed instantly leaving behind a young Palestinian girl who has become a symbol of Israeli callousness and injustice.

As Pilger notes,

"For the Palestinians, a war against their children is hardly new. A 2004 field study published in the British Medical Journal reported that, in the previous 4 years, 'Two-thirds 621 children killed (by Israelis) at checkpoints…on the way to school, in their homes, died from small arms fire, directed in over half the cases to the head neck and chest—the sniper’s wound."
Whether the Israeli people support a policy that intentionally targets children is irrelevant. As the "sound bombs" indicate, such a policy does in fact exist. Also, as the "sniper wounds" of over 400 children suggest, the killing of children is, at the very least, tolerated as an unavoidable consequence of occupation.

This is completely unacceptable.

How does a nation wander so far from its founding principles that children are willingly sacrificed as the price for attaining one’s territorial ambitions? This is truly the calculus of human suffering.

Israel should reject the fanatical militarism and racism of its leaders and do what they can to stop this unfolding catastrophe. The "sound bombs" may be an effective tool for subjugating the occupied peoples, but they are also a poignant memento of Israel’s regrettable slide into moral squalor. If "Greater Israel" is to be built on the lives of innocent children, the cost is too high. It would be preferable for the Israeli people to reassert their commitment to the basic values espoused in their own religion, a religion of peace which teaches forbearance, humanity and justice. Stop this assault on women and children, withdraw the troops from Gaza and get back to the bargaining table. That’s the only way we can solve this conflict and pull the entire region back from the brink of disaster.

OK, read the following, and tell me how this tactic can, by ANY stretch of the imagination, be considered "defensive".

Targeting Gaza’s Children with Sound Bombs

By Mike Whitney

07/05/06 "Information Clearing House" - -

http://tinyurl.com/y8ethr

"The killing, abduction, and suppression of the Palestinians by the Israeli military forces do not conform to any reason or logic; rather they flout the Jewish beliefs." Official Statement of the Iranian Jewish Community
The photographs of bombed-out buildings, burned-down power plants, and blown-up bridges only tell half the story of Israel’s terror-war on the people in Gaza. Absent from the pictures is the screeching sound of the F-16s flying overhead day-and-night producing the explosive sonic booms that shatter windows and terrify children. Israel has been remarkably successful in its psychological war against the Palestinians; exacting a heavy toll against the people for whom it was designed, Palestinian children. As author John Pilger notes in a recent article "The War on Children"

"Dr. Khalid Dahlan, a psychiatrist who heads a children's community health project, told me, 'The statistic I personally find unbearable is that 99.4 percent of the children we studied suffer trauma … 99.2 percent had their homes bombarded; 97.5 percent were exposed to tear gas; 96.6 percent witnessed shooting; a third saw family members or neighbors injured or killed.’"
Dr. Dahlan’s findings are consistent with other studies which show that at least 72.8% of children in the occupied territories suffer some form of trauma from exposure to random explosions and violence. The result has been a steady up-tick in the number of children who suffer from long-term effects of Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) a condition which can have a destructive effect on mental development and create adults that are excessively nervous, needy or depressed. As Pilger avers, "These children suffer unrelenting nightmares and 'night terrors’ and the dichotomy of having to cope with these conditions."

Israel’s sonic blasts are part of a larger psy-ops war that is aimed at directly at children; it has no other conceivable purpose. The explosions have no military value except to attack the fragile psyche of the most vulnerable and sensitive. As the survey indicates, Israel’s plan has succeeded quite admirably. In fact, Israel is so pleased with the results of its psy-ops terror-campaign that it has developed "sound bombs" which are intended to create widespread fear and trauma.

This new weapon has been successfully deployed in Gaza "inducing miscarriages and traumatizing children". Israel is aware of these effects and continues to use the weapon regardless of the human suffering it causes.

Just think of the money that could be saved if the Palestinians can just be kept in abeyance by producing a constant state of trepidation.

This appears to be the rationale of the Israeli leadership, who continue to explore the frontiers of psycho-anxiety weaponry.

What other possible reason could there be for sound bombs?

The moral implications of targeting children with mind-damaging weaponry is profound and alarming. To my thinking, it measures up quite impressively with the depraved acts of 9-11. Perhaps, it even exceeds them. After all, is there a more heinous crime than purposefully hurting children?

In recent weeks we have seen numerous incidents where children were killed or wounded by Israeli bombs or missiles. The most widely-publicized of these was the attack on the beach in Gaza where an entire family was killed instantly leaving behind a young Palestinian girl who has become a symbol of Israeli callousness and injustice.

As Pilger notes,

"For the Palestinians, a war against their children is hardly new. A 2004 field study published in the British Medical Journal reported that, in the previous 4 years, 'Two-thirds 621 children killed (by Israelis) at checkpoints…on the way to school, in their homes, died from small arms fire, directed in over half the cases to the head neck and chest—the sniper’s wound."
Whether the Israeli people support a policy that intentionally targets children is irrelevant. As the "sound bombs" indicate, such a policy does in fact exist. Also, as the "sniper wounds" of over 400 children suggest, the killing of children is, at the very least, tolerated as an unavoidable consequence of occupation.

This is completely unacceptable.

How does a nation wander so far from its founding principles that children are willingly sacrificed as the price for attaining one’s territorial ambitions? This is truly the calculus of human suffering.

Israel should reject the fanatical militarism and racism of its leaders and do what they can to stop this unfolding catastrophe. The "sound bombs" may be an effective tool for subjugating the occupied peoples, but they are also a poignant memento of Israel’s regrettable slide into moral squalor. If "Greater Israel" is to be built on the lives of innocent children, the cost is too high. It would be preferable for the Israeli people to reassert their commitment to the basic values espoused in their own religion, a religion of peace which teaches forbearance, humanity and justice. Stop this assault on women and children, withdraw the troops from Gaza and get back to the bargaining table. That’s the only way we can solve this conflict and pull the entire region back from the brink of disaster.

"I believe it is a mistake and misleading to cite this isolated event as Hezbollah's ratioanale for retaliating and waging war against Israel."

Winnipeger does seem to believe that the isolated kidnapping of an Israeli soldier does justify all-out war on Lebanon however.

Go figure.

When you plant a bomb in a restaurant and kill about a dozen human beings, that makes you a terrorist. When you kill 30 children from the cockpit of an f-16, that makes you an IDF pilot. As Brendan Behan reported said: The terrorist is the one with the small bomb.

Carrol wrote:

"Number Two..65% or more of American are not interested any more stragetizing/ minuplating "package deals" with the US on how to provide "manifest advantages" to Israel under the "guise" of the terrier war since they responsible for 90% of their own problems and a major cause of terrorism in the ME."

On which demographic studies do you base your assertions? Are we supposed to buy this uninformed BS? They are "responsible" for 90% of their "own" problems?! Give us a break with this drivel, Carrol.

and here is the clincher:

"I am seriously thinking of forming my own Soccer-Mom's Mossad, ripping the intestines out of these blooding sucking Israeli parasites and neo pond scum and shoving them down their throats."

beautiful Carrol! And you claim that the Israeli's teach hatred? I think that you could hold a master class yourself.

Shame on you. You are the embodiment of the characteristics that you demonize in others; a hypocrite.

"Winnipeger does seem to believe that the isolated kidnapping of an Israeli soldier does justify all-out war on Lebanon however."

wrong, Tom.

But, I do think that a cross border incursion, kidnapping of soldiers and then uninterupted artillery fire on PURELY civilian targets DOES justify a war.

You and others obviously disagree. I respect your opinions (aside from carroll's ignorant and disgraceful tirades). Please offer me the same respect.

Thank you

Pissed off American,

I do agree with some of what you say in your final paragraph:

"withdraw the troops from Gaza and get back to the bargaining table. That’s the only way we can solve this conflict and pull the entire region back from the brink of disaster."

The only problem is that one cannot bargain or make peace with oneself. At this time, Israel has nobody to negotiate with on the palestinian side. I'm sure that you're aware of Hamas' position, as well as the bloody civil war that is taking place in Gaza between the supporters of Hamas and Fatah.

But I do disagree with Mr. Pilger's (and your) characterization and definition of "sound bombs." as Mr. Pilger goes on to note, these are not "bombs" at all, merely sonic booms created by jets flying overhead. What mr. Pilger does not explain in his essay, is that these same sonic booms are heard everywhere in israel. Constantly. I don't know if you or others have ever visited Israel or the occupied territories, but we are talking about a VERY small area. Roughly the size of Rhode Island. Unfortunately, Jets are zipping around and training constantly, and sonic booms are a way of life.

IN NO WAY IS THE IDF TARGETING PALESTINIAN CHILDREN WITH "SOUND BOMBS"

This is the type of disinformation that makes people crazy.

IN NO WAY IS THE IDF TARGETING PALESTINIAN CHILDREN WITH "SOUND BOMBS"

This is the type of disinformation that makes people crazy.

Posted by Winnipeger

Yeah right.

Thats OK, they're only sonic booms. Thats why the UN is upset about it, huh?

Disinformation??

I'll tell you what "disinformmation" is.

"Disinformation" is calling an active policy of genocide "self defense".

Now, you want me to define "filthy liar" for you?

http://tinyurl.com/crnet

Palestinians hit by sonic boom air raids

· UN condemns night noise attacks as indiscriminate
· Agencies say they cause trauma and miscarriages

Chris McGreal in Gaza
Thursday November 3, 2005
The Guardian

Israel is deploying a terrifying new tactic against Palestinian civilians in the Gaza Strip by letting loose deafening "sound bombs" that cause widespread fear, induce miscarriages and traumatise children.
The removal of Jewish settlers from the Gaza Strip opened the way for the military to use air force jets to create dozens of sonic booms by breaking the sound barrier at low altitude, sending shockwaves across the territory, often at night. Palestinians liken the sound to an earthquake or huge bomb. They describe the effect as being hit by a wall of air that is painful on the ears, sometimes causing nosebleeds and "leaving you shaking inside".

The Palestinian health ministry says the sonic booms have led to miscarriages and heart problems. The United Nations has demanded an end to the tactic, saying it causes panic attacks in children. The shockwaves have also damaged buildings by cracking walls and smashing thousands of windows.

"I have never heard such a loud explosion. I thought it was right over the top of my building," said the owner, Tareq Dayyeh. "Sometimes you hear the rockets the Israelis fire but this was different. I felt like I was in the middle of a bomb. When I ran out the door I thought I might find the rest of the street was gone."

Over the past week, Israeli jets created 28 sonic booms by flying at high speed and low altitude over the Gaza Strip, sometimes as little as an hour apart through the night. During five days in late September, the air force caused 29 sonic booms.

A senior Israeli army intelligence source, who the military would not permit to be named, said the tactic is intended to break civilian support for armed Palestinian groups. "We are trying to send a message in a way that doesn't harm people. We want to encourage the Palestinian public to do something about the terror situation," he said. "What are the alternatives? We are not like the terrorists who shoot civilians. We are cautious. We make sure nobody is really hurt."

Yesterday, two medical human rights groups asked the Tel Aviv high court to outlaw the use of sound bombs on the grounds it amounts to illegal collective punishment and is detrimental to health.

continues at....

http://tinyurl.com/crnet

BTW, I live near Edwards Air Force Base. I rarely hear sonic booms. Our military is aware of their effect on the population, and keep the practice of generating sonic booms well away from populated areas. Your argument is pure unadulterated horseshit. And you know it. As does anyone else reading your tripe.

Report: AIPAC focus of fresh FBI probe

Sources told Time that the probe has been going on for months. The probe would try to determine whether Harman and AIPAC enlisted wealthy supporters to "lobby" House Democratic leader Nancy Pelosi to reappoint Harman.
According to the sources, Israeli businessman Haim Saban is one of the wealthy individuals who lobbied for Pelosi on behalf of Harman. Saban contributed at least USD 3,000 to Harman's election campaign, congressional sources told Time.

http://tinyurl.com/ynf9wg

Say 'goodbye', Winnipeger (please).

Points well made, Carroll & POA.

FORMER BRITISH AMBASSADOR SUSPECTS U.K./U.S. GOVERNMENTS STOKING IRAQI CIVIL WAR
Dire situation goes from bad to worse and provides only excuse for troops to stay

Steve Watson & Paul Watson / Infowars.net | October 18 2006

Former British Ambassador to the Central Asian Republic of Uzbekistan, Craig Murray, writes today that he suspects the ongoing sectarian violence in Iraq has been intentionally provoked and continued by US and UK special forces in occupation of the country.

Murray states:

"As the catastrophe in Iraq continues to unfold, an unresolved question remains on the role of Bush, Blair, and the US/UK military. To what extent were they passively incompetent in facilitating the decline into civil war, and to what extent were they actively pursuing policies that promoted that outcome?"

Murray suspects that as part of a "divide and conquer" strategy, the same strategy used by British forces in Iraq 85 years ago, Special forces are being used to intentionally foment civil war by training and equipping Kurdish Peshmerga fighters and Shiite militiamen, to target Sunni insurgents and their sympathizers.

The adoption of the 'Salvador Option' by the US in Iraq was reported and discussed from the beginning of 2005 onwards.

Newsweek reported that this Pentagon or CIA handled operation "would even extend across the border into Syria, according to military insiders familiar with the discussions... The current thinking is that while U.S. Special Forces would lead operations in, say, Syria, activities inside Iraq itself would be carried out by Iraqi paramilitaries."

"The evidence that the US directly contributed to the creation of the current civil war in Iraq by its own secretive security strategy is compelling." Murray continues.

He goes on to point out that US Congressman Denis Kucinich took up the issue in April of this year in a letter to Donald Rumsfeld requesting all records pertaining to the plan.

Kucinich weighed in on the matter, providing further evidence that the Salvador Option was being implemented, he wrote:

."About one year before the Newsweek report on the "Salvador Option," it was reported in the American Prospect magazine on January 1, 2004 that part of $3 billion of the $87 billion Emergency Supplemental Appropriations bill to fund operations in Iraq, signed into law on November 6, 2003, was designated for the creation of a paramilitary unit manned by militiamen associated with former Iraqi exile groups. According to the Prospect article, experts predicted that creation of this paramilitary unit would "lead to a wave of extrajudicial killings, not only of armed rebels but of nationalists, other opponents of the U.S. occupation and thousands of civilian Baathists."

John Pilger wrote further about the Salvador Option in the New Statesman earlier this year, shedding light on the origins of the plot:

"The real news, which is not reported in the CNN "mainstream", is that the Salvador Option has been invoked in Iraq. This is the campaign of terror by death squads armed and trained by the US, which attack Sunnis and Shias alike. The goal is the incitement of a real civil war and the break-up of Iraq, the original war aim of Bush's administration. The ministry of the interior in Baghdad, which is run by the CIA, directs the principal death squads. Their members are not exclusively Shia, as the myth goes. The most brutal are the Sunni-led Special Police Commandos, headed by former senior officers in Saddam's Ba'ath Party. This unit was formed and trained by CIA "counter-insurgency" experts, including veterans of the CIA's terror operations in central America in the 1980s, notably El Salvador. "

The confirmation that the Salvador Option had been invoked came quite publicly just over a year ago when British SAS were caught dressed in Arab garb and attempting to stage a terror attacks on Iraqi police. the soldiers were "rescued" by British troops using extreme force and a media blackout ensued.

In addition to the Salvador option, we have also exposed other US and Israeli policy documents stating that it would be beneficial to the overalk strategy to engender strife in the region.

In 1982, Oded Yinon, an official from the Israeli Foreign Affairs office, wrote: "To dissolve Iraq is even more important for us than dissolving Syria. In the short term, it's Iraqi power that constitutes the greatest threat to Israel. The Iran-Iraq war tore Iraq apart and provoked its downfall. All manner of inter-Arab conflict help us and accelerate our goal of breaking up Iraq into small, diverse pieces."

Ethnic cleansing, maimed children and thousands of dead American soldiers are a small price to pay because for the Globalists the end always justifies the means and untold bloodshed and misery and bloodshed won't stand in their way.

That agenda was again underscored recently when Daniel Pipes, a highly influential Straussian Neo-Con media darling, who told the New York Sun that a civil war would aid the US and Israel because it would entangle Iran and Syria and enable those countries to be picked off by the new world empire without the need to sell a direct invasion to the public.

Stephen Zunes, professor of Politics and chair of the Peace & Justice Studies Program at the University of San Francisco, recently wrote,

"Top analysts in the CIA and State Department, as well as large numbers of Middle East experts, warned that a U.S. invasion of Iraq could result in a violent ethnic and sectarian conflict. Even some of the war's intellectual architects acknowledged as much: In a 1997 paper, prior to becoming major figures in the Bush foreign policy team, David Wurmser, Richard Perle, and Douglas Feith predicted that a post-Saddam Iraq would likely be "ripped apart" by sectarianism and other cleavages but called on the United States to "expedite" such a collapse anyway."

"One of the long-standing goals of such neoconservative intellectuals has been to see the Middle East broken up into smaller ethnic or sectarian mini-states, which would include not only large stateless nationalities like the Kurds, but Maronite Christians, Druze, Arab Shi'ites, and others. Such a policy comes not out of respect for the right of self-determination – indeed, the neocons have been steadfast opponents of the Palestinians' desire for statehood, even alongside a secure Israel – but out of an imperial quest for divide-and-rule. The division of the Middle East has long been seen as a means of countering the threat of pan-Arab nationalism and, more recently, pan-Islamist movements."

The machinations of the Machiavellian's are unfolding according to plan. Let Iraq cascade into chaos and dilute the insurgency by manipulating it to become fractious and watch in-fighting ensue. Blame Iran and Syria for the anarchy (a sentiment echoed by Rice during the cartoon riots) and then move the troops in to decapitate two more rogue nations.

With the news today that nine American troops have been killed in bombings and combat, raising to 67 the number of U.S. troops killed in October, and public support for the war at an all time low, things are only getting worse.

A poll conducted for CNN over the weekend suggests support among Americans for the war in Iraq is dwindling to an all-time low. Just 34 percent of those polled say they support the war, while 64 percent say they oppose it.

Peter Pace, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, also acknowledged over the weekend that the overall strategy in Iraq is under review. Gen. told CNN that military plans, including the linchpin of U.S. exit strategy -- reliance on Iraqi forces to take up the fight -- is being reviewed.

Furthermore, British General Richard Dannatt created a furor last week by saying that British troops should "get ourselves out sometime soon because our presence exacerbates the security problems."

A poll published Sunday said 74 percent of Britons agree with Dannatt's comments. He also won the support of several top newspapers and the British Army. Despite this overwhelming support, Dannatt was the subject of a vicious Whitehall whispering campaign as Labour ministers furious at his devastating outburst over Iraq called for him to be sacked.

A new study published by The Lancet also emerged in the past week, estimating that 655,000 Iraqis, the vast majority of them innocent civilians, have been killed as a result of the bombing and occupation of Iraq.

However, Bush would have the world believe that it is us, the war critics that are "Propagandizing," and "engaging In "Illogical Behavior". Likewise for the rest of his cronies who still go around telling everyone that being in Baghdad is “like being in Manhattan.”

The AP also reported this week that reconstruction funds are drying up, that is the funds that did not go missing or were just wasted away, and America's big builders are pulling out, leaving completed projects and unfulfilled plans in the hands of an Iraqi government unprepared to manage either.

The only excuse for not withdrawing troops with immediate effect is that the situation has become so bad that it is a catch 22 dilemma. This is hogwash. The real reason troops will stay in Iraq is nothing to do with protecting the Iraqi people or the "fledgling democracy", it is purely about geopolitical and strategic positioning. It's about an aggressive occupying force setting up base and being in position for it's next target.

The myth that the occupation is about liberating the Iraqi people is now a known lie. Iraq is now a total and complete military police state, where the "liberated" people enjoy virtually no fundamental human rights. This so called freedom under occupation makes Saddam Hussein look like Nelson Mandela in comparison.

The reasoning behind the war has changed half a dozen times. President Bush keeps revising his explanation for why the U.S. is in Iraq, moving from narrow military objectives at first to history-of-civilization stakes now.

In a remark he made last year about the constant attacks on US troops in Iraq, Bush said: "The insurgents are being defeated; that's why they're continuing to fight." This stunning Orwellian reversal of all logic epitomizes the worsening situation in Iraq. Measuring success in terms of how far you are from success. The Straussian ideology in full flow means that the Bush administration in it's own separate logical world actually does legitimately have a reason to remain in Iraq.

The reality is that The Neocon hordes need to stay in Iraq to order to see through their insane Imperialist project for a new American Century, and the only way they can now do this is by practicing violence in the name of fighting violence. We used to be told that terrorists kidnapped and killed people, I guess it becomes moral when the 'authorities' are behind it.
* * *
You can also google Craig Murray and find http://www.craigmurray.co.uk/archives/2005/12/damning_documen.html

Pay attention, folks. Things are not going right on several fronts prompting the need to "change the subject" very soon. The military-industrial-complex, in cahootz with their Neocon/Likudnik enablers, are on the virge of pulling something off.

US NAVAL WAR GAMES OFF THE IRANIAN COASTLINE:
A provocation which could lead to War?
by Michel Chossudovsky

October 24, 2006
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=20061024&articleId=3593

There is a massive concentration of US naval power in the Persian Gulf and the Arabian Sea. Three US naval strike groups off the Iranian coastline are deployed: USS Enterprise, USS Eisenhower and USS Iwo Jima Expeditionary Strike Group.

The naval strike groups have been assigned to fighting the "global war on terrorism."

Tehran considers the US war games to be conducted in the Persian Gulf, off the Iranian coastline as a provocation, which is intended to trigger a potential crisis and a situation of direct confrontation between US and Iranian naval forces in the Persian Gulf:

"Reports say the US-led naval exercises based near Bahrain will practise intercepting and searching ships carrying weapons of mass destruction and missiles.

Iran's official news agency IRNA quoted an unnamed foreign ministry official as describing the military manoeuvres as dangerous and suspicious.
Reports say the US-led naval exercises based near Bahrain will practise intercepting and searching ships carrying weapons of mass destruction and missiles.

The Iranian foreign ministry official said the US-led exercises were not in line with the security and stability of the region. Instead, they are aimed at fomenting crises, he said." (quoted in BBC, 23 October 2006)

USS Boxer Expeditionary Strike Group (ESG 5) to arrive in Arabian Sea

The USS Boxer (LHD 4), --which is the flagship for the Boxer Expeditionary Strike Group (ESG 5)-- which left Singapore on October 16, is scheduled to join the three naval strikes groups. ESG 5 is comprised of USS Boxer, Bunker Hill, USS Dubuque (LPD 8), USS Comstock (LSD 45), USS Benfold (DDG 65), and USS Howard (DDG 83). ESG 5 also includes PHIBRON 5, the 15th MEU, Coast Guard Cutter Midgett (WHEC 726).

“We are about to enter a part of the world that can be very dangerous,” said Chief Aviation Ordnanceman (AW/SW) Jacques Beaver, Boxer’s flight deck ordnance chief. “We must be flexible and prepared to defend ourselves from any threats.”

Boxer has been preparing for the weapons upload for two months by completing required maintenance and electronic pre-checks. Checks ensure that the ship’s missile and launching systems are up to standard and safe to load with live ordnance.

“It has taken a lot of hard work for our people to get this done,” said Chief Fire Controlman (SW) William Lewis, combat systems, fire control division’s leading chief petty officer. “You cannot measure the importance of having these defenses guarding the lives of the Sailors and Marines in this strike group.”

BOXESG is comprised of USS Boxer (LHD 4), USS Bunker Hill (CG 52), USS Dubuque (LPD 8), USS Comstock (LSD 45), USS Benfold (DDG 65) and USS Howard (DDG 83). The strike group also includes Amphibious Squadron 5, the 15th Marine Expeditionary Unit, Coast Guard Cutter Midgett (WHEC 726) and Canadian Frigate HMCS Ottawa (FFH 341).

BOXESG is currently conducting operations in support of the global war on terrorism while transiting to the Arabian
Gulf." (http://www.c7f.navy.mil/news/2006/october/3.htm)

USS Boxer

Canada is part of the Expeditonary Strike Group (ESG 5)

Canada is formally participating in this military deployment under the disguise of the "war on terrorism". The Canadian Navy has dispatched Frigate HMCS Ottawa, which is now an integral part of ESG 5, under US Command. It is worth noting that particular emphasis has been given to medical evacuations and combat medical support suggesting that a combat scenario could be envisaged.

Boxer and Ottawa, both operating in the U.S. 7th Fleet area of responsibility, know that they can play a vital role to aid humanitarian assistance operations, medical evacuations or combat medical support that would rely heavily on the medical capabilities of the Boxer strike group. Cross training Sailors from ship to ship helps ensure the success of the strike group should BOXESG have to respond to any medical scenario, according to Richardson.

“Training is a necessary part of any evolution,” said Richardson. “Anytime you’re working with another nation, it’s important that we understand their capabilities just as much as they understand ours, so in the event anything occurs we know where our assets are.”

The cross training also fostered cooperation between the two allies which provided Verville and Boxer corpsmen a forum to learn about each other’s navies and each other’s culture." (Military.com October 2006)

Dangerous Crossroads: Tonkin II?

"An incident" in the Persian Gulf could be used by the US as a pretext for war against Iran.

A war pretext incident, similar to "the Gulf of Tonkin Incident", which triggered the Vietnam war, could be used by US forces, with a view to justifying retaliatory military action against Iran. In August 1964, President Lyndon B. Johnson claimed that North Vietnamese forces had attacked US destroyers in the Gulf of Tonkin. The Tonkin incident, which had been manipulated, contributed to unleashing a full-fledged war against Vietnam:

"A phantom attack on two U.S. destroyers cruising the Gulf of Tonkin was staged by the Pentagon and the C.I.A. The bogus attack occurred early in August, 1964. That evening President Lyndon Johnson went on television giving the grim details of the non-attack. Later, however, it was revealed that navy commander James Stockdale flew cover over the Gulf of Tonkin that night. Stockdale disclosed that U.S. ships were firing at phantom targets—targets that didn’t exist. The Gulf of Tonkin Incident that drew the U.S. into the quagmire of Viet Nam simply didn’t happen. Johnson, as presidents so often do, lied to the American people. The result was the rapid passage of the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution, which was the sole legal basis for the Viet Nam War. As a result of Johnson’s lie, three million Vietnamese people and fifty eight thousand U.S. soldiers died." (Charles Sullivan, Global Research, January 2006)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ANNEX: US NAVY

Navy Personnel
Active Duty: 349,783

Officers: 51,979

Enlisted: 293,368

Midshipmen: 4,436
Ready Reserve: 131,802 [As of 30 September]

Selected Reserves: 70,500

Individual Ready Reserve: 61,302
Reserves currently mobilized: 5,996 [As of 18 October]
Personnel on deployment: 36,037
Navy Department Civilian Employees: 175,454

Ships and Submarines
Deployable Battle Force Ships: 280

Ships Underway (away from homeport): 133 ships (47% of total)

On deployment: 104 ships (37% of total)

Attack submarines underway
(away from homeport): 22 submarines (40%)

On deployment: 11 submarines (20%)
Ships Underway

Carriers:
USS Kitty Hawk (CV 63) - Philippine Sea
USS Enterprise (CVN 65) - Persian Gulf
USS Nimitz (CVN 68) - Pacific Ocean
USS Dwight D.Eisenhower (CVN 69)- Mediterranean Sea
USS Ronald Reagan - Pacific Ocean

Iwo Jima Expeditionary Strike Group (ESG):
USS Iwo Jima (LHD 7) - Persian Gulf
USS Nashville (LPD 13) - Persian Gulf
USS Whidbey Island (LSD 41) - Persian Gulf

Boxer Expeditionary Strike Group (ESG):
USS Boxer (LHD 4) - Indian Ocean
USS Dubuque (LPD 8) - Indian Ocean
USS Comstock (LSD 45) - Indian Ocean

Essex Expeditionary Strike Group (ESG):
USS Essex (LHD 2) - South China Sea
USS Juneau (LPD 10) - South China Sea
USS Harpers Ferry (LSD 49) - South China Sea

Amphibious Warfare Ships:
USS Tarawa (LHA 1) - Pacific Ocean
USS Saipan (LHA 2) - Persian Gulf
USS Wasp (LHD 1) - port visit, Copenhagen, Denmark
USS Kearsarge (LHD 3) - Atlantic Ocean
USS Bataan (LHD 5) - Atlantic Ocean
USS Cleveland (LPD 7) - Pacific Ocean
USS Shreveport (LPD 12) - Atlantic Ocean
USS Ponce (LPD 15) - Atlantic Ocean
USS San Antonio (LPD 17) - Atlantic Ocean
USS Ashland (LSD 48) - Atlantic Ocean
USS Pearl Harbor (LSD 52) - Pacific Ocean

Aircraft (operational): 4000+

currently/or en route in/to Persian Gulf-Arabian Sea
(according to available information)

Winnipegger wrote:
"But, I do think that a cross border incursion, kidnapping of soldiers and then uninterupted artillery fire on PURELY civilian targets DOES justify a war."

As I understand it, Israel had imprisoned several thousand Lebanese CIVILIANS--almost entirely women and children.

Second, you can't "kidnap" soldiers--it's not illegal to take soldiers prisoner.

I'm adamantly FOR the state of Israel.

But when Israel conducts a war against civilian populations, it cannot cite the retaliatory attacks as 'justification' for all-out indiscriminate bombings, etc. It won't wash.

It undermines & contradicts its own claim to a moral cause.

Again, I must emphasize: we have, the U.S. has, an obligation to ensure Israel's continued existence--the events of the 20th Century were incomprehensibly catastrophic.

But there can be no justification for adopting the attitude & methods of those states and terrorists who had visited so much suffering upon the Jewish people for so many years.

It doesn't work; it backfires. It's bad Realpolitik. On that basis alone, it's incredibly incompetent. Continue to use these methods--and you provide a moral cause to your opponents. The U.S. has an obligation to see that Israel doesn't become what it has fought against for so long, if only to head off its complete & wholesale demise. Avoiding escalations would be nice too, though it's not part of Israel's agenda.

There IS NO essentializing moral standing held by ANY one people or nation on this Earth! Moral standing--political or spiritual--comes straight from conduct, from actions, from policy.

If Israel is to have or maintain any substantive standing as a democracy or as a moral actor or as a state with right on its side, or merely with power at its disposal--it has to fulfill its obligation to PROTECT the Palestinian people within its borders. Israel--if it is to have ANY moral standing at all--has an obligation to see that every ethnic/religious group & Palestinians have a political outlet for their concerns and have access to redress of grievances and the protection of the rule of law.

I don't know what is so hard about this. We WANT to stabilize the state of Israel, AND secure its continued existence. But it is 2006, not 1946. We're talking about Palestinians, NOT the German war machine. Germany lost because of their methods, because of the intrinsically amoral/unjustifiable/ & the un-Realpolitik of preemptive war. Germany was reviled because of its methods (& its rejection of justice, of politics)--not because of it's intrinsic status as a people.

Israel also has no recourse to intrinsic moral superiority, either as victim or as chosen people. It'll be measured by its actions and policies.

I understand the impulse to end the cycle of retaliation by retaliating with overwhelming force. Yet it's obviously strengthened Hezbollah, legitimated their leadership/cause, increased their technical capacity.

It's essential that threats to Israel's security come to an end--and soon. Yet Israeili civilians are not martyrs: they also have an obligation to rein in their military. Not simply because they pay a direct price for such policies & military actions. But rather because the people in democracies are directly responsible for the leaders they employ & elect.

IN the final accounting of history, of time, of spirit, what will they tell their children? What will WE tell our children?

That "I had to do it" ?

"It was my job" ?

"I'm a good American" ?

Americans tend to judge a man by his/her actions.

Failing the ends-means test is merely a minimalist measure of what's going on here.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but the topic of Israel has been taboo for far too long.

Any country with America's ability to grapple frankly with difficult issues has the capacity to address the Israel-Palestine issue pragmatically and non-ideologically.

The rhetoric has been way too heated, on either side.

Folks who've attempted to tackle the issue honestly have too often been attacked and marginalized for their supposed 'insensitivities.' And that attitude towards open discussion and the pragmatic politics of democracy has been far too prevalent. It's dealt an enormous setback to U.S. interests in the region, and been a huge liability overall.

That, I think, works in favor of the neocon smash-and-grab agenda--which is ultimately as ineffectual as it is bankrupt in every sense of the word.

RichF & Carroll:

Your Lefty talking-points are the standard blood-libel against Israel. I won't belabor the litinay of lies and will focus on one of RichF's assertion regarding attacking " civilians". I submit:

1) Hassan Fattah, a reporter for the New York Times, interviewed residents of the village of Marwaheen who described how they begged Hezbollah not to use their village as a staging ground for attacks. According to Fattah,
...on Thursday, one of the suspicious white vans was sitting next to the town mosque. The van had apparently been hit by an Israeli missile,but the launching platform for a Katyusha rocket could still be seen inside. A rocket that lay next to the van a few days earlier had been removed.
Elsewhere, villagers showed off a weapons dump that included heavy machine guns, mortar rockets and launchers, and numerous other rockets left behind. Part of the weapons store had been bombed, but a much larger store down the street was intact.
Residents said Hezbollah was using them as human shields. "One man in this village was able to turn all our lives upside down for just a bit of money," Ibrahim said. When the villagers left, he said, the fighters did too, as evidenced by the limited damage done to the town. (New York Times, Aug. 25, 2006)
2) Sabrina Tavernise, also of the New York Times, reported July 28:
"Hezbollah came to Ain Ebel to shoot its rockets," said Fayad Hanna Amar, a young Christian man, referring to his village. They are shooting from between our houses.. . .
Mr. Amar said Hezbollah fighters in groups of two and three had come into Ain Ebel, less than a mile from Bin Jbail, where most of the fighting has occurred. They were using it as a base to shoot rockets, he said, and the Israelis fired back.
One woman, who would not give her name because she had a government job and feared retribution, said Hezbollah fighters had killed a man who was trying to leave Bin Jbail.
3) Jan Egeland, the United Nations humanitarian chief, asserted in a press briefing:
"Consistently, from the Hezbollah heartland, my message was that Hezbollah must stop this cowardly blending. . . among women and children," he said. "I heard they were proud because they lost very few fighters [sic] and that it was the civilians bearing the brunt of this. I don't think anyone should be proud of having many more children and women dead than armed men" (AP, Lauren Frayer, July 24)
4) On Oct. 8, Anthony Shadid of the Washington Post reported:
[Hezbollah] began preparing for a ground war almost from the day Israeli forces left in May 2000. Most of the militiamen were drawn from their villages and kept their weapons at home. [Retired Lebanese general] Abdel-Kader said the town or village became the unit of defense, where other arms were stashed. The towns, in turn, were organized into three or four sectors, with a regional command.
"All the weapons were in the right place," he said. "They didn't need to mobilize."
5) AP correspondent Todd Pittman interviewed residents of the village Marwaheen, who recounted:
Hezbollah fighters in civilian clothes entered the village and set up launchers to fire rockets south into Israel. The guerrillas moved the launchers around, putting one on top of a house that was subsequently destroyed. . . .
A teenage girl who was in Marwaheen for the first three days of the war said she saw a Hezbollah fighter set up a rocket launcher with a timer on a nearby hillside, then run to the other side of the village near her home, taking refuge between civilian houses. Streaks of red crossed the sky as the launcher fired a volley into Israel, and minutes later Israel returned fire and huge explosions tore through the launch site, she said. "We begged them to leave," the girl said, declining to be quoted by name because she feared retribution from Hezbollah. "We told them, 'Get out! We have children here. We don't want anybody to get hurt.' But they ignored us." (Aug. 26)
6) Ze'ev Schiff of Ha'aretz described how Hezbollah enlisted farmers to launch rockets at Israel:
Hezbollah managed to fire a large number of Katyushas during the war - as many as 240 in one day toward the end of the fighting. The rockets, stored near the launch points in underground shelters or houses, were usually aimed with a direction and trajectory precalculated to hit a specific target in Israel. They were usually set up in orchards by arrangement with the grove owners, who were paid by Hezbollah.
The two-by-three-meter positions consisted of a hydraulic launch pad in a lined pit. The pad could be raised to fire the 122-mm rockets from a launcher at its center, and then lowered and camouflaged with vegetation. The farmers received instructions by cell phone regarding the number of rockets to launch and in what direction and range. They were often provided with thermal blankets to cover the position in order to keep IAF aircraft from detecting the post-shooting heat signature. (Sept. 5)
7) For visual evidence of Hezbollah's use of civilian areas, please see the Web site of Israel's Ministry of Foreign Affairs. In addition to photographs and videos, it also contains incriminating excerpts from Canada's National Post and New Yorker Magazine.
Contradicts Himself
Makdisi can't seem to decide whether Israel indiscriminately attacked the entire civilian population, all innocent, or whether Israel singled out a specific religious group. Also, he contradicts himself as to whether or not the population was providing "support" (cover) for Hezbollah:
But the punishment was not evenly distributed. Israel's war was aimed specifically at Lebanon's Shiite population. Shiite neighborhoods in Beirut were destroyed, but other neighborhoods remained untouched. Shiite villages in the south were obliterated - literally wiped from the surface of the Earth - while nearby Christian villages escaped unscathed, mercifully able to shelter their Shiite neighbors.
"Israeli officials said this was a war against Hezbollah, that Hezbollah was hiding in the midst of the population. But this wasn't a war against Hezbollah. It was a war to punish the entire population for its support of the guerillas.
"Not only was Hezbollah not hiding behind civilians, it ought to be obvious that the violence was directed in the first instance at the civilians themselves. To direct such violence at one community, one religious group, one minority - and to deny them the ability to return safely home - was what this war was all about."
Makdisi is right on one point - Christian towns were relatively spared Israel's strikes against Hezbollah because their sympathy for the Shiite terrorist group was much more limited than their Shiite counterparts. Thus, Hezbollah was not as entrenched in Christian locales, and Israel had less reason to target them. In other words, Israel was hitting Hezbollah targets which posed a threat to Israel's civilian population and was not simply "punish[ing] an entire population."
Makes an Outrageous Allegation
Makdisi's outrageous allegation that Shi'ite villages were "literally wiped from the surface of the Earth" requires substantiation. What villages? By what means were the villages supposedly "wiped from the surface of the Earth"? Does he claim that all of the inhabitants were killed and every building destroyed? If none is forthcoming, a correction is in order.
Repeats Debunked Figures for Lebanese Casualties
Makdisi parrots the common media charge that "The vast majority of the 1,200 Lebanese killed by Israeli bombardments were civilians; one in three was a child."
This frequently repeated figure is apparently based on Hezbollah assertions that it lost up to 80 fighters. But as the Daily Telegraph reported:
Although Hizbollah has refused to make public the extent of the casualties it has suffered, Lebanese officials estimate that up to 500 fighters have been killed in the past three weeks of hostilities with Israel, and another 1,500 injured.
"Lebanese officials have also disclosed that many of Hizbollah's wounded are being treated in hospitals in Syria to conceal the true extent of the casualties. They are said to have been taken through al-Arissa border crossing with the help of Syrian security forces. . . .
"Hizbollah's operational council has drawn up casualty lists that have been passed to the Shaheed Foundation. Copies have been seen by the Daily Telegraph, and have also been obtained by Lebanese newspapers, which have been pressured by Hizbollah not to publish them. ' Hizbollah is desperate to conceal its casualties because it wants to give the impression that it is winning its war,' said a senior security official. 'People might reach a very different conclusion if they knew the true extent of Hizbollah's casualties." (Con Coughlin, Aug. 4, emphasis added)
Additionally, on Aug. 22, Patrick Bishop of the Daily Telegraph reported:
"UN officials believe that Hizbollah will not want to reignite the conflict, at least for a while. The organisation's culture of secrecy has disguised the true number of its casualties--funerals of 'martyrs' are being staggered to soften the impact of the losses. Some were interred without ceremony for re-burial later. An UN official estimated the deaths at 500, 10 per cent of the force Hizbollah is thought to muster."
Israeli sources, and a few non-Israeli sources, including the Kuwait Times, reported that up to 700 Hezbollah fighters were killed. The Israelis claim to have identified by name some 440 Hezbollah fighters and estimate at least 200 others were killed.
Despite Hezbollah attempts to cover up the extent of its losses by, for instance, concealing funerals, a tally of press reports on fighters' funerals confirm that Hezbollah fighters suffered many more casualties than the 80 frequently cited. See CAMERA's full analysis and detailed list of these funerals, as well as a flash presentation summarizing the issue. In short, if Hezbollah's losses are as high as 700, it is blatantly false to claim that the "vast majority" of the 1,200 casualties were civilians.
Makdisi's Op-Ed is not the first time that the Los Angeles Times has printed the specious charge that the majority of Lebanese casualties were civilians. When challenged earlier by CAMERA, the paper failed to provide substantiation for reporter Raed Rafei's claim as fact that "1,200 Lebanese, mainly civilians" were killed in the recent war between Israel and Hezbollah ("Hezbollah Holds Beirut Rally," Sept. 23). It is unconscionable that, despite the vast evidence that CAMERA has provided the Readers Representative disputing Rafei's allegation, the paper has not only failed to substantiate its news report, but also repeats it.

Say 'goodbye', Winnipeger (please).

Points well made, Carroll & POA.

Posted by Easy E at October 25, 2006 01:16 AM

Why should I say goodbye? because I disagree with several of you? Would you rather talk amongst yourselves, everyone in agreement? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of an internet forum?

RichF:

OK. One more..

"Israel also has no recourse to intrinsic moral superiority, either as victim or as chosen people. It'll be measured by its actions and policies."

Such as dropping warning-leaflets on the Hiz-fortified villages prior to air assaults on military infrastructure

Such as phoning the homes of Islamic Jihad and HAMAS loyalsts warning them to leave so that wepons storage and illegal tunnels can be destroyed

Such as literally sending weapons to the PLO's Force 17 to protect Abbas

Such as taking wounded Hizballah combatants to Isreali hospitals for medical attention ( need I address how IDF wounded would be treated?)

Such as the imperative of a nation to militarily react to overt acts of war. I know that you on the Left apply a double-standard to Isreal, imploring it to adhere to a higher moral-authority. If these Islamic terrorists are seeking to become Shahids, let them aspire to their imperative.

Winnipeger:

Do not expect resoned fact-based discourse from these so-called Progressives. They lack the depth of intellectual capacity to move beyond their Isreal-slander moveon / ANSWER talking-points. They scour the Guardian and Counterpunch for the most outragous Isreal-slnder to toss-about. They do not tolerate external ideas nor any data points that undermine their fragile construct of cognative dissonance. They would prefer to rant to each other and tell each other how enlightened and global they are in their secular perspective of the world. They are no more than apologists for terroists.

...And what really amazes me is that apparently, Carro, The Pissed Off American and many other critics have never even been to Israel or the Territories!

talk about the uninformed opinions. The truth as they (don't) see it. A while back, when I was still lurking, Carroll even had the audacity to back up one of her claims by citing an Aryan Nation website and news outlet!

I guess you may be right; when it comes to the anti-Israel crowd there is too often NO room for other opinions.

The only good news is that Carrol, the Pissed Off Person and others of their ilk are probably ineffectual cranks hammering away at home on their keyboards.

Winnipeger:

Typical of "enlightened" anti-semites, they are seeking simple solutions to complex issues. I also have seen references cited that tarck-back to the StormFront.org. A Nazi web site.

As usual, when fear strikes the simple-minded, they strike-out at the usual scape goats. Scratch a Progressive and you'll find a neo-fascist.

Why should I say goodbye? because I disagree with several of you? Would you rather talk amongst yourselves, everyone in agreement? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of an internet forum?

Posted by Winnipeger

You should say goodbye because your useless horseshit is nothing but pro-Israeli propaganda (lies). Note how you avoided the issue of Israeli bulldozing of Palestinian farmlands and orchards, as well as the fact that Israel littered the Lebanese countryside with hundreds of thousands of cluster bomblets IN SPITE OFF of the fact that a ceasefire was imminent. Instead, you just despicably justified the wholesale terrorizing of the Palestinian people by labeling the Israeli sound bomb tactics as "just sonic booms". Then you lied about it by stating that such a tactic has not been used by Israel, despite the fact that Israeli military spokesmen have ADMITTED that the tactic has been used. THATS why you should leave, because you are a LIAR, and will say ANYTHING in order to back Israeli policy. I loathe liars. And I loathe the kind of human trash that will advocate positions they KNOW to be untrue just to advance a political viewpoint, or to spread propaganda. To top it off, now you are drooling that "anti-semitism" crap you lying fanatics always turn to when losing a debate.

Kiss my ass.

Those pesky, progressive, fragile constructs of cognative dissonance from the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide. They always seem to get in the way of the slash and burn, scorched-earth types. Funny how those constructs condemn Hizbollah to the same degree.

RichF thanks for the perspective on the expeditionary forces moving in the Arab gulf.

"RichF thanks for the perspective on the expeditionary forces moving in the Arab gulf."

That would be EasyE, but RichF thank you for your unapologetic secular perspective as well.

POA, the UN and human rights groups are claiming Israel fired "up to four million cluster bombs into Lebanon..." And, "UN de-mining experts say up to one million of the cluster bombs failed to explode immediately and continue to threaten civilians, especially children who can mistake the ordnance for batteries or other small objects."

http://tinyurl.com/y2lruf

Uzi wrote:

"Your Lefty talking-points are the standard blood-libel against Israel."

My comments are neither left-of-center nor do they come anywhere near "blood-libel." I focused solely on the actions--not an essentialized or labeled intrinsic character--and dealt only with state actions, not religious or ethnic identity.

You owe me an apology. And you owe it for both the accusation and for your dishonest mischaracterization.

It's precisely your shrill tone, your erroneous attacks, and your demonization of reasonable fact-based discussion that has made the topic of Israel taboo. It's the third-rail of foreign policy.

Uzi--and anyone who chooses a gun as pseudonym hasn't got moderation as an ally--you misread both my point and the facts at hand. Israel's PRIOR treatment of civilian Palestinians self-deals enormous setbacks to its moral, political, and military objectives. Having imprisoned (as I understand it) thousands of women & children civilians from Hezbollah/Lebanon PRIOR to the latest flare-up leaves little or no room for complaints. Indiscriminate bombing of prove Israel's only too willing to make war NOT on an army, but on an entire people, civilians included. Civilian targets were bombed. It's entirely beside the point that Hezbollah soldiers were among the population they were trying to protect. The British military cried and whined when George Washington hid among the populace and drew support for them, and I have no doubt he was referred to as a terrorist too.

Yet its entirely unreasonable to expect anyone anywhere to come out of the woods and stand in the Boston Commons to be murdered in cold blood. Taking refuge where one can when fighting for a just cause is not cowardice, but prudence. It's appropriately known as effective military tactics. If you don't like the playing field, move the contest to the political battlefield--where Israel's interests, survival, security, and redemption lies.

Hezbollah hugely increased its support among Lebanese civilians during the latest conflict. They improved their hand as legitimate political leaders in any number of respects, and it takes little work for you to figure that out.

Pissed Off American,

Congratulations on destroying another thread on this blog.

If I Was the host, I'd surely ask YOU too say goodbye. If Mr. Clemmons tolerates your presence unchecked, it is to the detriment of his blog. I'm just a random Canadian who linked to this site after Steve was quoted in our local paper. I find it quite objectionable to be vilified in such a way by people such as yourself and Carroll.

You say I'm full of horseshit and worse?! carroll writes that she wants to, "Rip the intestines out of these blooding sucking Israeli parasites and neo pond scum and shoving them down their throats." this only demonstartes your lack of humanity AND intelligence.

By the way, I already addressed my opinion about the issue and rationale for the use of cluster bombs in South lebanon. If you choose to ignore it and attack me over and over again in return, you demonstarte your own idiocy.

further your numbers are way off. the UN estimates that there are 100,000 unexploded bomblets, and the death from these ordinances through september 14 was 12 with 61 injured. War sucks, but every country has a right and a responsibility to defend its borders. In addition, cluster bombs are legal weapons used by many military forces in combat, including the U.S. and Britain.

http://tinyurl.com/ymm7jp

Also, there is a BIG difference between "sound bombs" as you refer to them and sonic booms. I never claimed to know everything about everything (unlike you and Carroll) and if I have erred I have erred NOT lied.

But maybe you and Carrol (and others) will answer my question about whether or not you have EVER visited the region that you claim to know EVERYTHING about!

HAVE YOU EVER BEEN TO ISRAEL, THE OCCUPIED TERRITORIES, LEBANON, EGYPT, etc??????????

PLEASE ANSWER THIS SIMPLE QUESTION BEFORE CONTINUING YOUR VILE PERSONAL ATTACKS!!!

And when someone cites stormfront.org to justify their position, should we not assume that person is anti-semitic? DO you really think it's an unjustified leap in logic to assume that they are??

BUT, AGAIN, PISSED OFF, CAROL AND OTHERS, HAVE YOU EVER BEEN TO THE MIDDLE EAST?? AND IF SO, WHERE???

Evil acts are attributable to both sides. Each act is trumpeted as a response to some other act. Both sides are right. Both sides are wrong.

So we have rationlized madness.

We need a parent to stop these violent children from fighting each other and literally drawing the entire world into their playpen of Hell.

Help!

Winnipeger,

Is it requisite to have "BEEN TO" places where atrocities and crimes were committed? Have you been to Hiroshima, Nagasaki, the Killing Fields of Vietnam & Cambodia, Rwanda & Burundi, etc., etc. Have you been to the cluster-bombed neighborhoods of Beirut, experienced life OUTSIDE the Green Zone in Baghdad? Have you been to Falluja and seen the glorious regentrification U.S. forces bestowed upon this community with depleted uranium, etc.? http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article10907.htm

Get real.

"enlightened" anti-semites--

once can't escape the labelling that goes with the terrain of offering a balanced perspective on israel related issues.. oh, and you must go their in order to have a balanced view as well, or be jewish, lol..

Israel Admits Using Phosphorus Bombs in Lebanon
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/777549.html

Does this mean Haaretz is anti-semitic, anti-zionist, or anti-jewish. Or perhaps this is one of those psy-op propaganda articles mysteriously planted in Israeli press by sinister anti-semitic foreign government.

The truth as they (don't) see it. A while back, when I was still lurking, Carroll even had the audacity to back up one of her claims by citing an Aryan Nation website and news outlet!Posted by

Winnipeger at October 25, 2006 09:01 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Well now you have yourself in a pickle don't you?..having to resort to lying becuase you can't justify your position. It's easy to search the archives or even google all comments for "Carroll and TWN" on the web to see that I have never quoted an "Aryan" website, in fact I have never even visited one, but evidently you have.
I am interested in facts, not the rantings of crazy cultist like you or your mirror twins, the neo nazis... my opinions come from strictly from the international press and from Israeli newspapers themselves.

Your only arguement is lying and accusing others of anti-semitism,particulary those of us who present something concrete in criticism of Israel..like..INTERNATIONAL LAW, for instance... instead of addressing the facts...you have lost, go home.

Dear Winnipeger

"carroll writes that she wants to, "Rip the intestines out of these blooding sucking Israeli parasites and neo pond scum and shoving them down their throats." this only demonstartes your lack of humanity AND intelligence. "

And Carroll means it...keep messing with the future of my children's country and stirring the ME war pot and you will get the mother of all "realignments".

Posted by Easy E at October 25, 2006 01:56 AM

Interesting...I have had suspcions that the Iraq chaos was by design..and that Cheney and the Israelis have not given up on their original plan for the partition of Iraq, mostly for seperate Kurd state....to do that they had to have a civil war to make it seems the only alternative.

Posted by: Carroll at October 25, 2006 01:53 PM

Absolutely. Iraqi chaos designed by none-other than the PNAC criminal cabal. The destruction and destabilization of the entire ME region suits their master plan: global domination & empire. The smoking gun of today's world evil originates at PNAC.

A reason why we won't see Iraqi withdrawal anytime soon:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1159193516026&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull

"guess you may be right; when it comes to the anti-Israel crowd there is too often NO room for other opinions."

Winnepeger, you have now gone and become a characature of yourself and the position you seek to represent. Any objective person following the treatment of Israel and Israeli-related policy in the United States recognizes the intolerance for any criticism of Israel and the lock step pro-Israeli formulations and behaviors up and down, right and left, of the spectrum.

Your rehtoric may find back slapping me tooism among AIPAC flack, and Zombie-like acquiescence among politicians in general, but it is part of a thought control disease at least as old as the name and practice of propaganda.

And therefore no more credible.

In offering the following for serious dicussion and thought is certain to get me a heap of negative comments from the various Israeli apologists in this thread. I remind those people not to shoot the messenger!

from Rev Ted Pike --

http://www.truthtellers.org/alerts/Godschosenpeople2.html

on prophet Ezekiel

Is God smiling on Israel in this future time? Hardly. Ezekiel sees Israel living in peace yet so wicked God hides His face from her (39:23)! She is "unclean, polluting the land" (Ezek. 39:23, 24, 29). She is acting treacherously against God (Ezek. 39:23, 26), profaning His name (39:7) unclean and transgressing (39:24).

This vision sounds very like the bloody Israel of today, a nation founded on ethnic cleansing and violent oppression.

What Ezekiel's Vision Means to Us

How does Ezekiel's vision relate to the present turmoil in Lebanon, Gaza, and Iraq? First, it is a stunning description of what has already partially happened in the Mid-East over the past century. A Christ-rejecting nation established itself in God's holy land in defiance of His demand for obedience. This anti-Christ, predominantly secular Judaic system, now the world's fourth strongest military superpower, is rising to dominate the entire Middle East, strengthening its unbiblical foothold in a land consecrated to faith.

Assisting such dominion, America has become Israel's tool to subdue Arab opposition. Christian evangelicals should warn the world of the approach of an anti-Christ Jewish system. Instead, they subsidize and defend the US-Israel military machine that is even now poised to add Lebanon, Syria, and Iran to its sphere of control.

Scripture prophesies Christians will be terribly persecuted by a one world government, headed by a Jewish anti-Christ ruling from Jerusalem. Yet, far from dreading the day when Israel will wickedly dwell in peace and safety, evangelical leaders do all they can to hasten it. This week prominent Pentecostal televangelist John Hagee calls for military strikes against Iran.

Massive Deception

Why are evangelicals so deceived?

Christ warned that in the last days deception would be so pervasive that even God's elect, if possible, would be led astray (Mark 13:22). Christian evangelicals have swallowed more than a century of unbiblical teaching in favor of Israel and Judaism. From the red states to the White House, evangelicals perpetually give Israel a green light to dominate the Middle East. Today, it seems no Zionist atrocity can shake their conviction that Israel, the "apple of God's eye," deserves their unblinking support.

This blind approval will only end when the forces of international Zionism finish exploiting Christian military, moral, and spiritual naivety; then Zionism's true nature will emerge as it subdues and persecutes the Christian church that brought it to power. Crushing Christianity has been the hidden goal of Talmudic Judaism since the Christian church was born.

Face the Forbidden Truth

What is to be done? As a starter, evangelicals should honestly read Ezekiel 38 and 39, two chapters that powerfully predict the rise of a bloodthirsty and anti-Christ State of Israel. To read these chapters honestly, Christians must surrender their own desires for socially rewarded beliefs, desiring truth first. They must seek the enlightenment of the Bible's author, the Spirit of Christ. And they must shelve the twisted interpretations of Israel-firsters like Hal Lindsey, Tim LaHaye, and John Hagee. These phony interpretations ignore many key Bible prophecies in Ezekiel 38 and 39 in order to maintain Israel-first theology.

Led by their blinded guides, most evangelicals believe Ezekiel predicts Israel dwelling in peace in the Mid-East as the object of divine blessing. They say the Lord Himself restrains Israel's enemies from coming against her.

Like the message of the false prophets to wicked Israel in the Old Testament, this interpretation portrays Israel as largely undeserving of judgment or "great tribulation." Regathered by God's command, Israel is seen as nonthreatening to the world or Christians. She remains highly favored by God, divinely protected from harm or invasion by anti-Christ.

This view encourages evangelicals toward even greater support of Israel: Since the state of Israel exists today by divine decree, Christian nations of the west should do all they can to remove the Arab threat and hasten Israel's "peace and safety." It also blackens the name of God by saying His approval is bestowed on a nation responsible for unspeakable evil. Does God bless the Israel who rejected His sovereignty, brutally dispossessed the Palestinians, and this summer alone has bombed fleeing villagers, viciously attacked Lebanon and killed scores of innocent Arab civilians? Is the gentle Jesus who said, "They who take up the sword shall die by the sword," (Matt. 26:52) really the God of War, rejoicing in military air strikes against the innocent civilians of Lebanon today, and Syria and Iran tomorrow?

The Truth about Ezekiel 38 and 39

If you read straightforwardly the text of Ezekiel 38 and 39, you find a very different message. These chapters clearly say:

God is very angry with the Israel of today and tomorrow. Ezekiel sees the Jews in the latter days occupying Palestine in wickedness, having used violence and deceit to subdue opposition worldwide. The anti-Christ, or "Beast", has co-ruled the world as Israel's false messiah, carrying the mother of harlots, Israel on his back (Rev 17,18). He nevertheless lusts after her global riches. Why share it when you can have it all? He invades Israel with his confederate armies. He overruns Israel, giving the Jews "into the hand of their enemies" and "into exile" (39:23). This third great exile of the Jews from their Promised Land fulfills God's law that wicked Israel must be expelled from the land dedicated to obedience. Even though God subsequently judges anti-Christ and the nations from heaven in the battle of Armageddon, the anti-Christ and his armies including the whole Arab world are God's tool to judge the most evil and oppressive system to ever burden this planet.

It is only after Christ's descent from heaven and judgment on the nations that a remnant of surviving Jews are empowered to believe in Him (Ezek. 39:22) and are led by His grace from exile. In the first spiritually lawful entry into Palestine in over 2,500 years, Christ leads this remnant into the ancient Promised Land where they live righteously under His rule for one thousand years.

Correct interpretation of Ezekiel 38 and 39 propels us to a terrifying conclusion. In a world of political and military strife and competition, no nation rises to a place of world impregnability without having first ruthlessly subdued its rivals. This can only be done through the most overwhelming ideological, political, economic, media, and military power.

Today we see evil Jewish leaders wielding this kind of diversified influence, not only in the Middle East but through control of governments, finance and media throughout the world.

Facing the Consequences

Christian evangelicals, whom will you believe -- best-selling Biblical "experts" who become multimillionaires because they tell Jews and Christians what they want to hear?

Or will you believe a Book which cares only for the whole truth -- the Bible?

Look again then, Israel-first evangelicals into the dreadful warning of Ezekiel. Read these chapters and tremble. Be aghast at how you and your fathers have empowered and blessed a system incredibly monstrous in its intent to destroy you, your children, and Christian civilization.

And yet, having mourned, have the faith and courage to take a bold, undreamt-of step of faith. Side with God. These Scriptures show us He is angry at apostate, imperial Israel.

Be angry also -- and speak out!

Posted by DonS at October 25, 2006 02:48 PM

DonS... winnerpeger has been here a long time under so many aka's I have forgotten them. I think one was "brian", ..he said he worked for a non profit agency in NY and was on his way to the Congo or some such place after we all finally decided to ignore him...
But he always pops back up under a different name with the same rant, usually stalking me or POA or whoever doesn't agree with his Israel hysterics...I believe he is most likely a high school or college student, not a adult... we should probably all go back to our ignore button on his post.

BTW, I live near Edwards Air Force Base. I rarely hear sonic booms. Our military is aware of their effect on the population, and keep the practice of generating sonic booms well away from populated areas. Your argument is pure unadulterated horseshit. And you know it. As does anyone else reading your tripe.

Posted by Pissed Off American at October 25, 2006 12:07 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>>

You know, this is very true and I had not thought about the effects of this before. I live near a Marine Air Base and use to live in a town with an AF base. On nights when they would have jets just testing their engines on the runway it was enough to wake the entire town of 40,000 people. When the base jets near me now are low flying and landing and taking off you can barely hear yourself think ..so I imagine the buzzing and sonic booms over Lebanon and Gaza are keep the population under stress and apprehensive all the time.
There is no doubt about the effects of this type noise...I remember vaguely that another resort town near me sued to keep the military from using their area for practice flights because it was so harmful to the residents and the wildlife in the area.

The debate NOBODY saw, but EVERYBODY should have:
ISRAEL LOBBY-TOO MUCH INFLUENCE ON U.S. FOREIGN POLICY
http://www.scribemedia.org/2006/10/11/israel-lobby/

The aipac crowd is squirming because Walt and Mearsheimer have let the cat out. The debate was at Cooper Union. C-SPAN may have been only media outlet to carry.
http://mondoweiss.observer.com/2006/09/the-great-debate-at-cooper-union-last-night.html

He comes here on a regular basis, under fourteen trillion different monickers, accuses a whole slew of us of being bigots, then whines about "vile personal attacks", and shoots a few emails off to Steve sniveling about how he is treated here. Just another denizen of Bushworld.

"you have lost, go home."

I wasn't aware that we were playing a game, Carrol.

And forgive me for asking the obvious question, but, where is home Carroll? This is cyberspace, baby. is TWN your personal fiefdom or something? Is your life in meatspace so boring that you that TWN has become *your* home? Do you and your friends want me to go away?

Well gues what? I don't wanna. I don't like being pushed around, especially by a couple of kooks who don't think anyone should have ideas and opinions different from their own.

I'll continue to post comments and share my opinions freely.

I'm sorry that you don't like me. but, you don't even know me. I threaten you. You even seem to believe that i am a threat to your children. c'mon. I got news for you, We live in a DEMOCRACY. We are all guranteed FREE SPEECH. We are all FREE TO EXPRESS OUR OPINIONS.

I am a supporter of Israel. But at the same time I have often been a severe critic of many policies and right-of-center Israeli politicans. I am a paid member of Peace Now, for God's sakes!

i don't share all of your opinions about israel and that does not make me a horrible person. I may think that it is INSANE when some compare Israelis to Nazis, but, again, this is a free country. I do, however, think that the sheer preposterousness of this mindset speeks for itself - if only outside of this little community.

Also, sonic booms are a real, every day part of life throughout Israel. If any of you experts had ever been there you'd know that.

DonS: can't respond to your post. it doesn't make sense. "Any reasonable person," huh? Let me guess, your the arbiter?

Guess what?

"Also, sonic booms are a real, every day part of life throughout Israel. If any of you experts had ever been there you'd know that."

Never mind that the Israeli military has ADMITTED to the tactic of using sonic booms, at night, to terrorize the Pals, eh?

What happened, did you sink the African Queen by trying to load the bilge with too much bullshit, alec??

Posted by Easy E at October 25, 2006 08:33 PM

I had also read before that Walt and Mearsheimer are doing a full lenght book on the "Lobby" and wonder of all wonders, it is being published by well know (who name escapes me at the moment) US publishing house.

I think their critics are going to be sorry for accusing them of "lack of depth" in their prior paper....bet this book will have a trillion citations and footnotes...you could do a whole library on the lobby if you wanted to go back as far as Truman.

I can imagine the screeching when this book hits the shelves.

"What happened, did you sink the African Queen by trying to load the bilge with too much bullshit, alec??"

whoa. I think someone spends a little too much time here. Alec?

"Never mind that the Israeli military has ADMITTED to the tactic of using sonic booms, at night, to terrorize the Pals, eh?"

never mind that you first referred to sonic booms as "sound bombs." You really do know what you're talking about, huh?

P.S. Carroll - Are you still going to "rip out my intestines?" Did you know that it's illegal to threaten someone with bodily harm... even on the internet. I warn you not to do it again, honey.

P.S. Carroll - Are you still going to "rip out my intestines?"......
Posted by: Winnipeger at October 26, 2006 12:39 AM

How about if TWN posters just legally fantasize about such an event?

Here we go...

You know the Israelis are crazier than the Jim Jones koolaide drinkers.
They are determined to provoke an "incident" hoping it esculates and brings in the US to their side in a full blown war in the ME.
So far France is threatening to shoot down illegal IAf overfights and Israel is harrasing German ships.
BTW, does anyone know if we have any allies any more except Germany and the Aussies? When we get into this WWIII who exactly is going to be on our side?

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/779428.html

Last update - 23:19 25/10/2006


IDF: No shots fired in IAF incident with German ship

By Amos Harel and Gideon Alon, Haaretz Correspondent and Reuters

An Israel Defense Forces spokesman on Wednesday confirmed that Israel Air Force jets had been involved in an incident with a German vessel and helicopter, but denied reports that the jets had fired shots over the ship.

The Germany daily Der Tagesspiegel earlier on Wednesday quoted a junior German defense minister as telling a parliamentary committee that two Israeli F-16 fighters flew low over the German ship and fired two shots.

The jets also activated infra-red countermeasures to ward off any rocket attack, the paper quoted him as saying, in an advance release from Thursday's edition.

The IDF spokesman denied that the air force had attacked a ship or opened fire in the vicinity, but said that IAF jets had been launched early Tuesday when a helicopter took off from a German aircraft carrier in waters close to Rosh Hanikra without identifying itself in accordance with United Nations regulations. The incident was quickly solved without confrontation, the spokesman said, and only flares were fired."

......

"In response to threats by French forces to open fire on IAF overflights, Peretz said, "we will in no way take these threats, and we've made that clear in conversations with all parties."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>

P.S. Carroll - Are you still going to "rip out my intestines?" Did you know that it's illegal to threaten someone with bodily harm... even on the internet. I warn you not to do it again, honey.

Posted by Winnipeger at October 26, 2006 12:39 AM
>>>>>>>>>>

Oh please it's clear you have a mental problem, quit stalking me, your obession with me is creepy and don't warn me on anything or I will feed your tiny brain to my cat should you ever come within brain snatching distance of me.

Winnepeger, your tactics remind me of the zionist cabal that invaded the Howard Dean chat forums, especially after the "evenhanded" event. I've seen it here before as well. Trolling for the neocons and Likudniks, regardless of your professed "peace" credentials.

The Mossad maybe has been busy doing other "nice things" in Lebanon.

from Wayne Madsen --

Israel and its American backers wanted to blame Syria

October 24, 2006 -- A senior French DGSE -- Direction g�rale de la s�rit�xt�eure -- intelligence officer has told WMR that Lebanon's ex-Prime Minister Rafik Hariri was killed in a car bombing arranged by Israel's Mossad. The revelation from French intelligence is significant as the French government of Jacques Chirac joined the Bush administration and the neo-con policy establishments in Washington and Israel in blaming Syria for the attack. According to the DGSE officer, Israel and its American backers wanted to blame Syria for the assassination of the popular Lebanese leader in order to blame Syria for the attack thus forcing the popular Lebanese revolt that saw the withdrawal of Syrian forces. That left Lebanon defenseless for the "Clean Break" attack launched by Israel, with US support, against Hezbollah and Lebanon's infrastructure.

WMR was one of the first to report Israeli and American involvement in the assassination of Hariri, as well as those of Elie Hobeika, George Hawi, and other Lebanese politicians.

WMR was one of the first to report Israeli and American involvement in the assassination of Hariri, as well as those of Elie Hobeika, George Hawi, and other Lebanese politicians.

Posted by: pauline at October 26, 2006 09:34 AM

I've always felt that Mossad was involved in taking out Hariri & others. Neocons are using elements of Mossad, MI5, CIA, private contractors (Blackwater), etc., to destabilize entire ME.

Last update - 23:19 25/10/2006

IDF: No shots fired in IAF incident with German ship

By Amos Harel and Gideon Alon, Haaretz Correspondent and Reuters

An Israel Defense Forces spokesman on Wednesday confirmed that Israel Air Force jets had been involved in an incident with a German vessel and helicopter, but denied reports that the jets had fired shots over the ship.

The Germany daily Der Tagesspiegel earlier on Wednesday quoted a junior German defense minister as telling a parliamentary committee that two Israeli F-16 fighters flew low over the German ship and fired two shots.

The jets also activated infra-red countermeasures to ward off any rocket attack, the paper quoted him as saying, in an advance release from Thursday's edition.

The IDF spokesman denied that the air force had attacked a ship or opened fire in the vicinity, but said that IAF jets had been launched early Tuesday when a helicopter took off from a German aircraft carrier in waters close to Rosh Hanikra without identifying itself in accordance with United Nations regulations. The incident was quickly solved without confrontation, the spokesman said, and only flares were fired."

What's wrong with this? According to this article, it was the German's who F*&cked up and didn't identify their helicopter.

DonS, believe it or not, I'm not part of any "zionist cabal." it may surprise you idiots to learn that many people DO NOT SHARE YOUR VIEWS. I always get a laugh when you asshats think that someone who disagrees with you is part of some kind of republican or zionist disinformation team, scouring liberal internet blogs to further some agenda, instead of someone like you... an "average joe" with passionately held and expressed opinions.

And Pauline, Do you really believe that israel and the U.S. killed hariri? i think that claim is ridiculous. I think it's a no brainer that Assad's henchman carried out the contract killing. But, then again, some people don't believe that the U.S. was attacked by Al Quaeda on Sept. 11.

Boy, was I surprised to see such an on-topic and thoughtful first comment. Then winnipeger went off-topic and the usual suspects gleefully followed. The rest of the thread is crap.

Boy, was I surprised to see such an on-topic and thoughtful first comment. Then winnipeger went off-topic and the usual suspects gleefully followed. The rest of the thread is crap.

Posted by Keith M Ellis at October 26, 2006 11:16 AM

I agree with you, Keith. I apologize for lighting the match that destroyed this thread. Evidently, I don't have the self control to ignore the "usual suspects."

wimpyposter quote >>But, then again, some people don't believe that the U.S. was attacked by Al Quaeda on Sept. 11.<< i suppose that is why the us went to war in iraq too, lol... the leadership thought it was saddam hussain, not al qaeda! love yer logic wimpyposter.

From earlier this week --

http://antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=9904

"The complete disregard for American interests – which can be measured in the rising U.S. casualty rate and the worldwide diplomatic and political "blowback" emanating from the decision to invade – goes beyond mere recklessness. It's not as if they made an honest mistake: American interests did not enter into the calculations of key policymakers. Other interests were paramount in the decision to go to war, and since we're talking about the neoconservatives, Israel was surely a major factor, if not the determining factor, pushing us into Iraq.

Israel's exemplary character and its key role as a U.S. ally are central canons of the neoconservative foreign policy prescription, and always have been. This is only tangentially and coincidentally linked to religion: the Sparta of the Middle East embodies all the martial spirit and sense of "national greatness" that the neocons would love to see instilled right here in America. Unconditional support for Israel has always been at the heart of the neocons' Middle Eastern strategy, and they haven't made any bones about it."

"AIPAC's defenders have alleged that the prosecution of Rosen and Weissman amounts to "persecution," that the two were just exercising their First Amendment rights. Oh, they say, "everybody does it" and therefore passing classified U.S. government memos around as if they were baseball cards ought not be prosecuted. With the revelations of the Harman investigation, what "everyone" is doing, with AIPAC's assistance, is beginning to crystallize. And it isn't pretty. If "everybody" does it, then "everybody" deserves a stiff jail term.

The Lobby isn't just in the business of peddling a glorified, largely fictional portrait of Israel as America's valiant little "democratic" ally, which deserves unconditional support as it tyrannizes its Palestinian helots and rampages through Lebanon and occupied Palestine. It is clearly also performing another service for the state of Israel, namely espionage. Before the AIPAC investigation is through, it could cut a wide swath through the world of Washington politics, ensnaring members of both parties and exposing the true extent of Israel's fifth column in America.

I have to add that this new revelation, like the initial exposure of the AIPAC investigation, looks to me like a preemptive leak, a "controlled burn," undertaken to obstruct the investigation and give the guilty some opportunity to cover their tracks. These guys are professionals, and they're resisting exposure every inch of the way. However, it looks to me like we haven't heard the last of the Harman-AIPAC-espionage connection, and there's lots more to come."

More Israeli influence in our government?

from Wayne Madsen --

October 24, 2006 -- US Air Force official's past raises eyebrows. On December 7, 2005, the US Air Force officially recognized "cyberspace" as one of its warfare domains -- along with air and outer space. In early November, Air Force officials will gather in Washington to form a new US Air Force Command -- the Air Force Cyberspace Command. It will have authority to launch wars in cyberspace. The new command is largely the brainchild of Dr. Lani Kass, director of the Air Force Cyberspace Task Force.

Kass' past has many US government computer security officials puzzled and concerned. From 1979 to 1981, Kass served as a Major in the Israeli Defense Forces. This was at a time when Israel was targeting America's most closely held secrets through its Navy spy, Jonathan Pollard. After her service in the IDF, Kass integrated into the Washington national security establishment, the private sector serving as an entree.

From 1982 to 1985, Kass was Director of the Russian Research Center at Booz-Allen and Hamilton, Bethesda, Md. (an odd name considering that Russia was then called the Soviet Union by every national security entity). From 1985 to 2005, Kass was Professor of Military Strategy and Operations at National War College at National Defense University in Fort McNair, Washington.

Kass previously served in the Dick Cheney Defense Department, having worked from 1992 to 1993 as Special Assistant to the Director, Strategic Plans and Policy Directorate (J-5), Joint Staff at the Pentagon. She returned to the Pentagon under Defense Secretary William Cohen and continued to serve under Donald Rumsfeld. From 2000 to 2001, Kass was Senior Policy Adviser and Special Assistant for Strategic Initiatives to the Director, Strategic Plans and Policy Directorate (J-5) and from January 2006 to the present, she has been the Special Assistant to the Chief of Staff, U.S. Air Force, and Director of CSAF�s Cyberspace Task Force.

I would like to stick to the purpose of Steve's blog which is about policy and policy influencers and who is discussing what.

But I am paranoid these days and think mostly about Ron Suskind's quote from a WH official about how .."they make reality" and the rest of us are left to discuss it and while we discuss it they move on to create more of their reality which we can then also discuss.

And this has been mentioned by here before but it bear watching.. there may be nothing to the reports of this US buildup..it might be business as usual,then again it might not. I am sure others actors in the region may see it as a opportunity for something to go really wrong...or right..according to their own agendas. But I would say whatever the intentions behind this, it is a rather touchy time for this US display and they know that.

http://billmon.org/

London Yank at The Daily Kos has been following military developments in the Persian Gulf closely -- maybe too closely, but under the circumstances I can hardly argue that his obsession is unhealthy, or even unreasonable.
He notes that yet another Marine strike group -- this one led by the USS Boxer (like the Iwo Jima, an amphibious assault ship) has arrived on the scene, bringing the number of task forces in the region to four, including two carrier task forces. Even for the U.S. Navy, that's a heap o' firepower.

I find it interesting that no other "debate" is as divisive within otherwise progressive circles as is the Israel/Palestinian conflict.

Is it the fact that Jews are the single most reliable progressive bloc and many have strong attachments to Israel?

Is it the latent or unacknowledged anti-Semitism that is at work in Western culture even among people who are otherwise progressive?

No other issue seems to generate this amount of emotion and vitriol. Very odd.

What a boring thread.
OT, here is the latest on the campaign of that beacon of Republican ethics, Lincoln Chaffee, from TPM:
"For the last week or so, Republican Senator Linc Chafee has been trying to turn the tide of his race by attacking Democrat opponent Sheldon Whitehouse as being soft on public corruption during his tenure as US Attorney and the state's Attorney General.
It hasn't really been sticking, so yesterday, Chafee went for the Hail Mary. He held a press conference in front of the business owned by Antonio Freitas, the guy who wore a wire and worked undercover for the feds in 1998, eventually helping to bring down corrupt Providence Mayor Buddy Cianci. Chafee tried to paint Whitehouse as a crony of Cianci, saying that Freitas had told the feds not to let Whitehouse know he was working for them to get Cianci because Freitas didn't trust Whitehouse not to give him up.

Freitas went on to hold his own impromptu presser, peddling a tale about an unnamed "informant" in the Mayor's office who told Freitas that in 2001, Whitehouse had cut a deal with Cianci to send Freitas to jail in exchange for having Cianci appoint one of Whitehouse's pals as the new Chief of Police in Providence.

The problem with all of this is that Freitas has a bit of an axe to grind with Whitehouse. Freitas was convicted of domestic abuse on two separate occasions when Whitehouse was AG. In 2000, Freitas pleaded no contest to domestic assault after being charged with hitting his wife. In 2001, Freitas was arrested again for hitting his girlfriend. The arrest violated his probation and he was sentenced to four months in prison.

Here's the story.

Whitehouse came back strong in response, holding his own press conference in the afternoon, denouncing Freitas' statements as "utter nonsense" and blasting Chafee for standing with a repeat batterer and trying to minize his crimes in an effort to bolster his campaign.

This is going to hurt Chafee, who really looks like he's climbing into the gutter and hoping to toss enough dirt around to save his campaign. Whitehouse has run a series of very effective ads pushing the message that we must change the make-up of the Senate to stop Bush's policies.

Chafee's claims to be an independent voice who has voted against Bush are looking mighty hollow in light of the $500,000 the RNC dumped into his recent primary to help him win that tough contest. And Whitehouse has effectively reminded people of that through his ads.

For those who voted for Chafee because of his "good guy" demeanor, which I believe was an important factor in the support he received from independent voters, this latest attack is going to do more harm than good."

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/010586.php

Nov. 7 will mark the end of Steve's campaign to save the Republican "moderate", who will die a well-deserved death in several districts.
God save us from the spineless cowards like Chafee and Hagel who give cover to the atrocities of the Bush administration.
Too bad Specter wasn't up for re-election instead of man-on-dog. Specter is MUCH worse for this country than Santorum, who already was a joke with no real influence.

BTW...easyE actually covered this upstream..
Posted by Easy E at October 25, 2006 02:19 AM

I am not informed enough in this area to know if these deployments are unusual or normal considering the situtation...maybe someone here can look at this or provide some military comment.

Is it the fact that Jews are the single most reliable progressive bloc and many have strong attachments to Israel?

Is it the latent or unacknowledged anti-Semitism that is at work in Western culture even among people who are otherwise progressive?

No other issue seems to generate this amount of emotion and vitriol. Very odd.

Posted by MP at October 26, 2006 05:48 PM
>>>>>>>>

Don't' start MP..you know the answers to your own question.
And this is not a good day to push my buttons...my very good JEWISH friend and step father to my best friends died yesterday after a long horrible illnes. In the 40 years I knew him he never saw himself as a victim, experienced any anti-semitism or thought of himself, or acted as anything but a Jew by religion only and a proud American citizen with everything that implies.
So I suggest you do something very JEWISH and say a prayer for my friend and then examine your own motivations for trying to drag "The Jews" into the question of what "Some" Jews are doing and promoting this brand of anti-semitism that my real JEWISH friend did not approve of.

Is it the fact that Jews are the single most reliable progressive bloc and many have strong attachments to Israel?

Is it the latent or unacknowledged anti-Semitism that is at work in Western culture even among people who are otherwise progressive?

No other issue seems to generate this amount of emotion and vitriol. Very odd.

Posted by MP at October 26, 2006 05:48 PM
>>>>>>>>

Don't' start MP..you know the answers to your own question.
And this is not a good day to push my buttons...my very good JEWISH friend and step father to my best friends died yesterday after a long horrible illnes. In the 40 years I knew him he never saw himself as a victim, uttered a bigoted thought about anyone, experienced any anti-semitism himself or thought of himself, or acted as anything but a Jew by religion only and a proud American citizen with everything that implies.
So I suggest you do something very JEWISH and say a prayer for my friend and then examine your own motivations for trying to drag "The Jews" into the question of what "Some" Jews are doing politically and promoting this brand of anti-semitism that my real JEWISH friend did not approve of.

Carroll wrote:

"I would like to stick to the purpose of Steve's blog which is about policy and policy influencers and who is discussing what."

what about the deciders?

Oh well, now everyone is going to be an international military "Interventionalist". Lovely, just lovely. I am having dire second thoughts on Lind's concert of great powers theory.

FT: "Germany will on Wednesday adopt the most radical restructuring of its military since 1945, turning the Bundeswehr into an international intervention force, according to an internal cabinet strategy paper obtained by the Financial Times. The paper, which will be endorsed at a special cabinet meeting in the defence ministry, is the product of a review – the first of its kind since 1994 – begun by Angela Merkel, chancellor, after she won office last November. It will see Germany’s military officially abandon its primary postwar task of defending the country’s borders in favour of a more robust role for German troops on international missions. The military’s most sensitive international deployment since the second world war came this month when the German navy took control of patrolling Lebanese waters to stop weapons smugglers. The military has taken part in other international missions in Afghanistan and Kosovo, for example, but has largely avoided direct involvement in war zones."

Booz-Allen and Hamilton

Pauline, amazing how often Booz-Allen is the connection to questionable talent isn't it?

"I find it interesting that no other "debate" is as divisive within otherwise progressive circles as is the Israel/Palestinian conflict."

"Is it the latent or unacknowledged anti-Semitism that is at work in Western culture even among people who are otherwise progressive?"

The "divisive" part of this isn't debating the conflict itself. The "divisive" part is that everytime we try to debate about Israel's part in the mess, and their regretable meddling in our own governance, invariably some asshole comes along and calls us "anti-semitic". THATS whats divisive.

some labels are more descriptive of those giving them out, then those then are intented for..

For the Israeli apologist who visits here and say those who haven't been to Israel know nothing.

I just visited Israel with a Jew.

http://www.tpmcafe.com/discussiontables/foreign_affairs_table/2006/oct/21/israel_a_personal_journey

It confirmed my opinions, suspicions.

This is worst than what we did to our black American's slave ancestors.

We are doing this, without American support Israel could not do this.

This is a genocide with the American goverments seal of approval on it.

We have gone over the cliff. There will be no more America, we will be shamed beyond repair for generations... just as Germany was...even those who have no compassion for the Palestines need to understand how they will be affected in this country because of this...it must stop.

"This is worst than what we did to our black American's slave ancestors."

You are absolutely out of your friggin' mind, Carroll!

"I just visited Israel with a Jew."

Correction, Carroll. You did not "just visit Israel with a Jew," you just READ an account of someone who visited Israel. needless to say, there is a big difference. But, understanding that you are afflicted with such a limited cognitive ability, I commend you on your "journey."

keep truckin' genius.

Carroll wrote:
"Pauline, amazing how often Booz-Allen is the connection to questionable talent isn't it?"

This certainly gets deeper and stranger the more I google.

Check this out for starters --

"[Booz Allen] A company with strong ties to the atrocity of September 11, 2001 is also implicated in the intense digital harrasment experienced in the past couple of years by anti-war activists.

Booz-Allen is engaged in the creation of a program called "Magic Lantern." This program is designed to figure out people's passwords so the military can have access to *ALL* email accounts...for the purpose of fighting terrorism. Magic Lantern insidiously will install a "virus" on your computer so that when you next log in to your email using a password, Magic Lantern sends a copy of the password to a Military computer, and they can then access your email. This is all stuff I got to read in the Washington Technology (a magazine devoted to celebrating the newest technological contracts awarded on Capitol Hill). It was HIGHLY recomended to me that those of us that use our email to engage in social justice work be aware of these realities and change our passwords VERY Frequently, making sure to include numbers in our passwords."

http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2003/09/22/16473171.php?show_comments=1

I find it interesting that our resident troll accuses people of "ruining the thread", yet he just keeps flaming Carroll, and fishing for reactions. When one reads the thread in its entirety, from the beginning, one sees the baiting he engages in, and one becomes capable of seeing the purposefully inflammatory progression of rhetoric he uses, DESIGNED to derail the thread.

So, one must ask, what type of personality claims to be regretful of the turn the thread takes, when it is obvious that the "turn" was purposelly guided? He accuses Carrol, repeatedly, of being a hypocrite. Re-read the thread. WHO is the hypocrite here? Is it Carroll, who has tenaciously stuck by her convictions here, and conscientiously sought to clarify her convictions with concrete media accounts and clear statement of opinion? Or is the true hypocrite some ass that shows up here on every thread that deals with Israel, spewing his garbage about anti-semitism, then lamenting our response to his accusations by dogging Carroll's every comment with useless insult and derision?

One thing is for sure. Every time this individual shows up here, it becomes more and more obvious that Israel's actions are indefensible by any reasonable standard of debate. It always ends up with Israel's defenders spewing the time worn accusation of "anti-semitism", while completely ignoring the reality of the conflict, and the true cost in human suffering and injustice.

"A Jewish Hitler?"

http://www.antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=9923

"Confession that formed base of Iraq war was acquired under torture: journalist"

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/usbritainiraqmilitary

Give us all a break, Pissed Off American.

I alone destroyed this thread?! I guess that Caroll threatening to "rip out my intestines" and your reference to my opinions as horseshit constitute informed and civil debate, huh?

Further, I have no idea what "individual" you are talking about. Your paranoia is quite alarming, actually. As I stated previously, I just discovered this website when Steve Clemmons was quoted in an article in the Globe and Mail.

Are you really so ignorant as to believe that I am the only one reading this blog who supports Israel and thinks you and Carroll are cranks?

And speaking of Carroll, forgive me for thinking that she's a tiny bit dim-witted if she actually believes that reading some strangers account of an experience is the same as having that experience HERSELF. And not to mention her INSANE claim that the Palestinians are suffering a worse fate than african slaves did in this country!!! That is completely beyond the pale.

Here is a tip for you, chap: tear yourself away from your keyboard for a bit and acyually see the world you claim to know EVERYTHING about.

I rest my case.

Read it once, read it twice!

"Israel makes a qualitative step toward a regime that increasingly resembles, in all its essentials, a rogue state, and, I might add, potentially a very dangerous one.

Lieberman's views are notoriously racist, and his rhetoric is invariably violent."

http://www.antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=9923

Democracy Now has an interview today with an Israeli soldier who is part of the group Breaking the Silence. They are exposing some of the stuff they had been ordered to do against Palestinians. The groups site is down but it can be found at:

www.breakingthesilence.org.il

Carroll, I had an interesting encounter with a local conservative columnist in a small newspaper both he and I write for. During the Lebanon invasion he came out with a column complaining about anti-semitism skewing the reporting on the war, that hezbollah were terrorists and deserved what they got, provoked it all, yada, yada.

I wrote a letter that was published, calling him out and enumerating the crimes against the Lebanese that were happening up to that point. Prepping the letter I went to the FBI site to look up hate crime stats and reports. I was surprised to see of actually hate crimes reported, the majority of them in the US are against Jews. The catagories list crimes for religious affliliation, property, personal attacks that sort of things.

This fact made it a little difficult to directly address his bias. Anti-semitism is a real phenomenon, but for reasons other than their actions in the Middle East against their neighbors, our complicity in their murderous way of "defending themselves," the Lobby's influence in Congress and in our foreign policy, I would presume. I think I succeeded in making it very clear bombing infrastructure, civilian targets, polluting the entire coast of Lebanon with oil, etc, etc was a murderous, criminal way to conduct a war. He came back with calling me a sissy liberal. Typical.

RichF stated it very well above somewhere. This is about actions, not about some essential superior moral standing. All the resolutions in Congress which were unanimously, or nearly so, passed in support of Israel at the time changed my opinion of my usually progressive representative Tom Allen. The bias is unbelievably in favor of Israel's "survival," there actions ignored.

Relative to Steve's posting, given this governmnet in Israel and our support to it, how do you move forward? How does the parent of a high school kid who has shot up his school move forward? Similar question.

The ever-lovely Carroll:

"Number Three...I am seriously thinking of forming my own Soccer-Mom's Mossad, ripping the intestines out of these blooding sucking Israeli parasites and neo pond scum and shoving them down their throats if they don't quit fucking with my children's country and goverment."

sdemetri's useful summary of his visit to the FBI's hate crimes site (http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/hc2005/index.html) fails to mention that one of the most commonly reported offenses against Jews is intimidation. It would seem, Carroll, that your expression of your passionate desire to "rip out the intestines of blood sucking Israeli parasites" (which so very eloquently marries together so many of the grand themes of antisemitic thought down through the ages) might very well entitle you to a place in the FBI's statistics gathering. Congratuations.

Posted by Pissed Off American at October 27, 2006 10:59 AM

Ditto and Bravo!

"Is it Carroll, who has tenaciously stuck by her convictions here, and conscientiously sought to clarify her convictions with concrete media accounts and clear statement of opinion?"

But you see, Carroll, despite her many links, has repeatedly said that anti-Semitism doesn't exist or doesn't exist very much, that it's mostly something that exists in the minds of some Jews and is mostly fomented by Jewish leaders to manipulate Jews.

And Carroll, despite all the time she's spent in the British archives, seems unaware that anti-Semitism--the real thing--had a huge amount to do with Israel's founding and still has a huge amount to do with Jewish support for Israel.

She also thinks that the Holocaust weren't no big thing cause lots of other folks got killed too and why can't the Jews just get over it like, say, the Russians--and seems quite uninterested in the whole topic and how it contributes to today's conflict.

She also seems to think that the Israeli-Palestininan conflict, as bad as it is, is equivalent to, even worse than, 400 years of slavery plus 150 years of Jim Crow and lynching and the ongoing racism in this country as evidenced by Katrina and the generally deplorable conditions many blacks still live with today.

All of this is sheer nonsense--no matter how many links she can post--and Pauline with her "dancing Israelis" is right behind her or beside her. So after a while, I have to wonder: What's driving this? You see, the belief that the Jews are "behind it all"--or that Israel is behind it all--is basically one form of anti-Semitism, even if she doesn't hate Jews, some of her best friends are Jews, or has never met a Jew she didn't like.

When I see a clear pattern like this, I have to wonder: Is this a horseshoe? It sure looks like one. To me, that's not divisive: It's simply calling a horseshoe a horseshoe.

Posted by sdemetri at October 27, 2006 11:36 AM
>>>>>>

Good comment and summary.

I don't doubt there is some real anti-semitism..I have seen references to some Ayran hate sites and so forth... but I think it is among a small minority of people in this country..not the wide spread attitude of normal people. At the same I think about what happened in Germany where the whole society sleepwalked thru the holocaust and I look at some of the attitudes today toward Muslims or Arabs who are the new Jews and wonder if anyone has really learned anything.
But there is no doubt in my mind that some of the militant types in the Israeli camp deliberately stir up the anti-semitic thing as a cover for the actions of Israel. I don't know how to account for the holocaust or what is going on now except that they are always started by a minority of lunatics and the follower public follows right along.

Agree with you about our politicans..it absolutely boggles my mind that they blindly support everything Israel does or wants. It's an abberration really, another sign of the corruption of our goverment and political system.
I lost all hope of them ever acknowledging right from wrong or standing up for the law or basic morality when they did nothing during the attack on Lebanon.

I don't where or how all this will end but it has to end, we are just too sick and hypocritical as a country to go on like this much longer.

Between the horrible comment threads and Steve's ever more fulsome praise for any member of the Bush administration who is not currently ripping out the throat of a young child this blog has really gone to shit.
I don't care for AIPAC AT ALL, but I have to say I find it unfortunate that my politics are close in some area to the extremely offensive Carroll.
David Lieberman is right, you are a sick piece of work, Carroll.

P.S. I can't imagine that anyone who wants to be informed on any of these issues appreciates the vicious rants on one side or the completely personal and argument free responses on the other. If all that Alec, et. al. can say to ANY of the sometimes interesting material posted by POA is that he is an anti-Semite...well, that pretty much gives the game away.

MP didn't like the Dancing Israelis news account? Then MP sure wouldn't like that one of the "Dancers" was in fact a Mossad agent who's own lawyer admitted the "dancer" had previousy flunked lie detector tests.

So much for calling a horseshoe a horseshoe!

"Aside from the flaws in the practical case for an Israeli-centric policy, the moral case for elevating Israel's interests over our own is very weak. Mearsheimer and Walt note that much of the sympathy for Israel has been based on its alleged status as the underdog: David standing alone against the demographic Goliath of the Arab world. Yet this picture, strenuously promoted by the Israel lobby, is far from the truth. Israelis the underdogs? Give me a break! As the authors point out, Israel is the strongest military power in the region."

http://www.antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=8730

Carroll, again:

"I don't know how to account for the holocaust or what is going on now except that they are always started by a minority of lunatics and the follower public follows right along."

Sure you do, Carroll. The core minority of truly dedicated lunatics go around looking for that slightly larger minority of lunatics who publicly fantasize about ripping out the intestines of those whom they disagree with, dislike, or resent. This slightly more empowered group then goes around looking for that even larger minority of lunatics who would seek only to expell those whom they disagree with, dislike, or resent. These then recruity that still larger minority who merely want to fence off or ghettoize those whom they disagree with, dislike or resent. Before you know it, you have a healthy mass movement on your hands.

And, again, congratulations -- having declared your eagerness to take up your pitchfork, you have at last become everything you claim to oppose.

"If all that Alec, et. al. can say to ANY of the sometimes interesting material posted by POA is that he is an anti-Semite...well, that pretty much gives the game away."

Actually, Marky, I don't think POA is attacked for his "sometimes interesting material." And I don't think people are attacked for reasoned critiques of Israel or AIPAC. I can't remember anyone waving the flag for the Lebanon invasion, for example, though it stretches reality to characterize Hezbollah as a "humanitarian aid" group.

Calling Israeli a Nazi state or talking about the new Jewish Hitler is really just the inverse equivalent of playing the "anti-Semite" card. What's the worse thing you can call a Jew besides the K word? The N word. And that stuff goes on all the time on this site--more on certain threads than others.

My position is pretty close to MJ Rosenberg's over at tpmcafe.

Posted by MP at October 27, 2006 12:56 PM
>>>>>>>

Dear MP....I use to find some value and reason in your comments but you have gone over the edge and joined winnipeger in lying and misrepresenting other people's opinions with personal attacks and insults. If it upsets you that I know Jews or have Jewish friends who don't go along with your views on Israel's actions or political attitude toward the non jewish world, well then that is your problem, not mine. The bottom line is Jews are just like all other humans in the universe, some good, some bad, some indifferent, you don't represent them all or control them all.

"If all that Alec, et. al. can say to ANY of the sometimes interesting material posted by POA is that he is an anti-Semite...well, that pretty much gives the game away."

I haven't seen "Alec' post ANYTHING on this blog, but seeing as i've already been accused of being his alter ego, I'll respond:

I've never accused The Pissed Off American of being anti-semitic. I HAVE accused him of being uninformed and, in my opinion, off-the-wall, but I've NEVER called him an anti-semite... although, based on his one-sided world view of the Arab-Israeli conflict and the often vicious tone of his comments, I wouldn't be surprised.

As for Carroll, she is OBVIOUSLY anti-semitic... and, as is usually the case, plain old dumb.

MP,
I think I know which Rosenberg article you are referring to.
The problem I have with his position is that as a non-Jew I don't have a vested interest in the continuance or protection of Israel as a Jewish state. He does, and he's welcome to advocate his cause. I don't see how siding with the Greater Israel hawks has helped our security; on the other hand, if our policy towards Israel is driven more by pity and a desire to protect them from annihilation, that is not a healthy state of affairs either.

Oh, I see that Wger admits to being Alec.
You're not the erstwhile bertignac too, are you?

Ooops,
Just read the tail of your comment when I was previewing, "alec", so I missed the denial.
Yes, you accuse POA of being uninformed, but generally that is the sum of your response.
It's quite inadequate. I don't think POA is uninformed at all, but I think his sourcing could be better, e.g. in the 9/11 stuff: any statement that has Steven Jones has a lead signer is just not worth reading.

Posted by Marky at October 27, 2006 01:37 PM
>>>>>>

It appears you are pissed off that this thread is not gossip about who is on first and who is on second and the latest juicy sex and money scandels in the sleezy contest of the current campigns.

But I think you can express that without resorting to the tactics of winnipeger and MP.

Nothing sick about my views fellow, I have my eye square on the real bottom line, not the back yard gossip and fluff of political games....we are in a immoral war and supporting the immoral actions in Isr/Pal...until the public deals with the corrupt political system that brought this about your political sports commentary has a much value as watching a Jerry Springer reality show.

Your dem partianship and activism on this thread in trying to herd all dems into one viewpoint has been obvious and is doing the dems no good. It's not changing this dem's mind...it's just proving that the same superfical mentality exist on both sides and that anything will be condoned for the sake of political power.

Dear Carroll...where have I misrepresented you?

I have no problems with Jewish friends of yours not agreeing with me. I assume they would accord me the same respect.

My point was just that just because your Jewish friends have never experienced anti-Semitism doesn't mean it doesn't exist...or exists only among small minorities, such as the Aryan Nation.

You seem to have skipped over one of sed's key statement here: "I was surprised to see of actually hate crimes reported, the majority of them in the US are against Jews. The catagories list crimes for religious affliliation, property, personal attacks that sort of things." And our man DIL gave us the link.

MP:

You seem to have skipped over one of sed's key statement here: "I was surprised to see of actually hate crimes reported, the majority of them in the US are against Jews. The catagories list crimes for religious affliliation, property, personal attacks that sort of things." And our man DIL gave us the link.

DIL: Just to clarify -- the single largest US group to be victimized by hate crimes remains African Americans, who suffered 68% of the 4895 reported racial-bias hate crimes. Of the 1405 reported religious-bias crimes, however, Jews were indeed the big winner, with 69.5% of the total. (Anti-Islamic hate crime was the next largest group in this category for 2005, with nearly 11%)

David I Lieberman

"I think I know which Rosenberg article you are referring to.
The problem I have with his position is that as a non-Jew I don't have a vested interest in the continuance or protection of Israel as a Jewish state. He does, and he's welcome to advocate his cause. I don't see how siding with the Greater Israel hawks has helped our security; on the other hand, if our policy towards Israel is driven more by pity and a desire to protect them from annihilation, that is not a healthy state of affairs either."

To be sure, MJ is a self-avowed zionist--but not the sort of zionist who is often demonized on these threads. He believes Jews should have a state--that's the core zionist assertion. In many respects, it's no different an assertion than saying that American's should have a state, or the French should have a state, and so on. Instead of being exceptionalist, it is an attempt to give a people, scapegoated for centuries, a place of their own, where they are in the majority and aren't subject to the depredations of a hostile majority.

The Greater Israel folks are a subset of zionists; neither MJ nor I believe in or support their cause.

I would have thought that protecting a people from annihilation was a worthy cause. But it isn't the only reason to support Israel--even when one doesn't support everything it does.

Thanks for the correction, Marky.

I disagree about how you characterize the nature of the "sum of my responses" to "POA." forgive me for objecting to someone who tells me that my ideas amount to "horseshit," or applauding his friend when she expresses a desire to "rip the intestines out of these blooding sucking Israeli parasites and neo pond scum and shove them down their throats."

My main criticism of the "POA" and Carroll is NOT the fact that they oppose any number if Israeli and U.S. policies. After all, I am VERY opposed to a number of both! Merely, their inability to admit any shade of grey in what is probably the most intractable conflict in history. Surely, both sides have been right and wrong and different times. SURELY, Israelis are NOT nazis! and surely, Islamofascists, including Hamas, Hezbollah, etc. are ALSO deserving of some harsh criticism and rhetoric. No?!

Also, call me old fashioned, but I was taught to see something "with my own eyes" before I form an opinion. Interestingly, I was also taught to never believe that I alone "knew-it-all." And yes, Marky, I do find it ridiculous that people profess to know everything about such a complicated and nuanced geopolitical situation as that in Israel and particularly the occupied territories WITHOUT EVER HAVING BEEN THERE!!! Doesn't actual SENSORY EXPERIENCE count for anything?? Haven't your pre-conceptions ever been altered by reality???

I am NOT an Israeli apologist. I was aghast when Sharon cynically marched on the temple mount in his quest for political power and I was equally aghast when Arafat left Barak hi and dry at camp david, without so much as a counter-offer.n I also refer to judaea and sumara as THE OCCUPIED TERRITORIES!!! Doesn't this tell you something about my take on the Israeli/Palestinian issue???

I could go on and on, but suffice to say that I would find it TREMENDOUSLY useful and I am sure that the world would be a vastly more peaceful place, if everyone on this blog AND EVERYONE IN THIS WORLD COULD ADMIT THAT THEY MAY NOT ALWAYS BE RIGHT ABOUT EVERYTHING!!

...And forgive me for having little regard for people who think they know EVERYTHING about a country THEY HAVE NEVER VISITED!!!

(can you tell this frustrates me?)

Wpger, that's a lot of words to say very little, sorry to say.
I would me more interested in factual rebuttals of things that POA or Carroll say.
While I agree that visiting the ME may improve one's knowledge of the area, that's not guaranteed, and not a fair standard to apply to Americans who want to discuss ME policy.

I really don't think your posts contained the level of detailed response you imply that you could provide, and that's a shame.

MP, of course preventing the annihilation of the Jews in Israel is a worth cause, but frankly I don't think the risk of an attempt is particularly high.
Furthermore, I strenuously object to the common Zionist position that any political change which causes Israel to cease to be a Jewish-majority state is totally equivalent to guaranteed annihilation of the Jews. That is utter rot.
My point was that our policy towards Israel should be directed towards making it a viable, self-sustaining state. You'd think the Israelis would resent being a bunch of welfare queens after a while, wouldn't ya?

By the way, MP, I meant to remark that the goal of Zionism is peculiarly NOT very resonant to Americans as opposed to, say, French.
The lack of an ethnic identity is part of the raison d'etre of the US.
Nationalism is usually understandable in particular cases, and also usually unfortunate in its result.
There are also clearly cases where several nations collectively agree that a certain people should not have a nation---for example with the Gypsies or Kurds. Do the Kurds deserve their own country? The Romany?

"Furthermore, I strenuously object to the common Zionist position that any political change which causes Israel to cease to be a Jewish-majority state is totally equivalent to guaranteed annihilation of the Jews. That is utter rot. My point was that our policy towards Israel should be directed towards making it a viable, self-sustaining state. You'd think the Israelis would resent being a bunch of welfare queens after a while, wouldn't ya?"

Well, not per se, no. Not in a logical sense. But when a people has suffered millenia of severe persecution and then virtual annihilation, then it's easy to understand why they would want one place in the world that they controlled. It's a judgement call to be sure, but I think it's easy to understand. And then once established, the citizens of the state should have some rights to self-determination: If Israelis decide they no longer want a majority Jewish state, that's their business.

To be sure, self-sustaining. I think they've done a pretty good job overall. Perhaps better than their neighbors whom no one is vowing to destroy. On the other hand, Lebanon and Syria don't have a peace treaty with Israel. Egypt is a cold peace. And for what it's worth, a number of neighbors and near neighbors have sworn their destruction. Perhaps it's just chin music, but it's easy to understand how a people who has experienced near annihilation might not want to take what they feel are silly chances.

I mean, the UN agreed to the establishment of Israel. Isn't it time that all of its neighbors said okay? It's perfectly obvious that her Arab neighbors have NEVER cared about the Palestinians, so what gives?

"Furthermore, I strenuously object to the common Zionist position that any political change which causes Israel to cease to be a Jewish-majority state is totally equivalent to guaranteed annihilation of the Jews. That is utter rot."

Well, Marky, I don't think this is entirely "utter rot." My entire family, aside from my grandparents who were lucky enough to be living in the U.S., were muredered by the Nazis and burned in ovens because they were Jewish. I also had some family living in Kiev and they were all machine gunned at Babi Yar. Incidently, 33,741 jews were murdered at Babi Yar on september 29,30 1941.

Unfortunately, the U.S shut its borders to jews fleeing the Nazis. Many full boats of people were actually turned away in new York harbor and sent back to their death. None of this was anything new.

Whether it's the inquisition, or the Crusades, or Pogroms or one of the other myriad examples of Jewish suffering at the hands of their neighbors and countryman, Jews have been persecuted for millenia.

I do not think it is a big leap to assume that history will repeat itself when it comes to the Jews, as it does for everything else. Only 60 years ago, one-half of the Jews in the world were exterminated by the most technogically advanced and supposedly "civilized" country in the world.

My great aunts and uncles, my great-grandmother and great-grandfather had NOWHERE to go... Nowhere to escape. As much as they hated to admit it as proud Hungarians and Poles for centuries, they actually had no home. And the same went for the great greats before them and the great greats before them, etc...

Israel is a lifeline to Jews the world over.

It is time for this thread to move on.

Everyone is saying the same things over and over again.

Some of us think that Israel's goverment is morally wrong in most of it's actions because the majority of it really is about real estate and power and not security, and is heading now toward some kind of genocide in the form of a transfer or worse for Palestine and that our country is letting this happen.

Others say anyone who says this is an anti-semite and it's all about hating Jews and we are giving the other terrorist groups a free pass because we don't care if Israel is destroyed becuase it is a jewish state.

O.K. we all know where everyone stands...move on, no one is going to change their minds.

Time will tell who is right and who is wrong. Let's hope something changes fast so history doesn't have to make that judgement.

"Nationalism is usually understandable in particular cases, and also usually unfortunate in its result.
There are also clearly cases where several nations collectively agree that a certain people should not have a nation---for example with the Gypsies or Kurds. Do the Kurds deserve their own country? The Romany?"

I can see your point--but then why isn't the elimination of any other state regularly ever called for? Why aren't we talking about getting rid of Saudi Arabia or Peru or China or Germany any one of which has done some pretty bad things to others and to its indigenous populations? The US for godsake...killed everyone who got in her way and built her greatness on the backs of blacks. No, these are all sacrosanct nations. Maybe all Israel really has to do is stick around long enough...

A lot of people think the Kurds should have their own state. Who's to say?

Well, let's move on to something less controversial. How about bans on veils for women?
I'm on the fence here, but I think the governments of Europe are within their rights here.

I think it is worth noting that Ahmadinejhad's proposal for a one state solution is a political change that would probably make for an end to a Jewish-majority state. He has suggested a vote of all in Palestine, Israelis and Palestinians. I know the cry for the destruction of Israel has been long standing, and from many quarters, but his specific and much trumpeted declaration of destruction is actually satisfied by this plan in the sense of an end to a Zionist state.

Realistic or not, I am not a total believer in how his "wiped off the face of the earth" statement has been interpreted in light of this proposal.

The great fear that Iran possessing a nuclear weapon for the purpose of "wiping" a nation away doesn't make much sense to me either. Israel is known to possess such weapons, though they don't confirm it. Iran's acquisition can realistically be seen as not much different than for self-defense through strategic deterence, the Mutual Assured Destruction concept. Iran is actually in greater danger of destruction by nuclear attack right now. The rest of the world fears, rightly, such weapons in the hands of state-less criminals.

"stateless criminals'

Posted by sdemetri at October 27, 2006 05:12 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>

I am waiting for the movie where the stateless criminals win by sneaking into countries to fire nukes at some other country and get everyone to retaliate against each other and nuke themselves into eternity.

Stateless criminals... non goverment actors..they are the wave of the future because it is against the law to actually talk to these people until after we blow them up them....the world is going to look like swiss cheese pretty soon..

Carroll wrote:
"O.K. we all know where everyone stands...move on, no one is going to change their minds."

I wonder how many people really read these threads besides the regular contributors? Steve Clemons says he doesn't have the time, so who do we think we're all trying to persuade, embarass, or put down?

I just know that common sense tells me that having dual citizens FROM ANY OTHER COUNTRY in high positions of our government (including homeland security) is not just incredible, but ultimately insane.

Be a star golfer and a dual citizen, fine. Be an artist, doctor, or brinklayer and a dual citizen, fine.

Have access to sensitive government information and be a dual citizen -- not sane or practical or ethical in my world.

So, what have we created in this great experiment we call the United States of America? imo, we have a constitution which has lost it's impact and meaning. We have a bill of rights and habeas corpus which has virtually disappeared. We have a mountain of dis-information and a deceitfully crafted psyops war from our own elected officials. We have an unresponsive, power grabbing, and lying government where when the most impactful decisions like going to war are made, no one can seemingly remember who said what to whom. And after 9/11, no government officials get fired!

Yikes, whose minding the ranch? And why hold elections in a few days if the integrity is absent in e-voting machines?

If I sound so depressed, do I have any good reasons to be?

"So, what have we created in this great experiment we call the United States of America? imo, we have a constitution which has lost it's impact and meaning. We have a bill of rights and habeas corpus which has virtually disappeared. We have a mountain of dis-information and a deceitfully crafted psyops war from our own elected officials. We have an unresponsive, power grabbing, and lying government where when the most impactful decisions like going to war are made, no one can seemingly remember who said what to whom. And after 9/11, no government officials get fired!"

Maybe so and worse, Pauline, but in the end, where else would any of us rather live?

God bless the United States of America.

"Maybe so and worse, Pauline, but in the end, where else would any of us rather live?"

Actually I was in Vietnam last year and enjoyed myslef immensely.

If I sound so depressed, do I have any good reasons to be?

Posted by pauline at October 27, 2006 06:25 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>

Yes, you do and I agree...we are in serious trouble. Freedom of speech has become influence with money...diversity has become special interest..the melting pot is seperating like oil and water.
I do believe in cycles though, we have lurched to one extreme now and will lurch to the opposite extreme when this one hits the wall, then maybe if we are lucky we will reagain a workable balance.

"But you see, Carroll, despite her many links, has repeatedly said that anti-Semitism doesn't exist or doesn't exist very much, that it's mostly something that exists in the minds of some Jews and is mostly fomented by Jewish leaders to manipulate Jews."

I have never seen Carroll deny the existence of anti-semitism. EVER. If you have seen her do so, please provide a direct quote, and where it may be found.

However, I have seen her lament the mis-application of the term "anti-semitism" when the ACCUSATION is used by a debater's inability to defend Israel's actions on their merits, (or lack thereof). I too have, on numerous occassions, cried "BULLSHIT!" when the accusation of anti-semitism is used to mask an inability to defend Israel's actions. Frankly, I am sick of these insipid pissant trolls like this current spineless twerp accusing me of bigotry every time I utter a utter a sylable critical of Israeli policy in the Middle East, or their bribery of our politicians through organizations such as AIPAC.

And one must ponder the character of a poster that continually feels they must present themselves as being a different individual everytime they come here to post. It is typical troll behaviour, and have been blogging far too long to fail to recognize the behavior, particularly when it is so poorly masked, as in the case of this "winnipeger" clown.

Re-read the thread. "Uzi" and "winnipeger" made NO ATTEMPT to intelligently present their case in defense of Israel when they were presented with direct questions about Israeli policy. But they made EVERY ATTEMPT to persuade us that they had in fact made intelligent rebuttals.

Note winnipeger's post directly above this one. In it, we see a perfect example of winnipeger's inability to honestly present himself. Would a Canadian really say the following;

"Maybe so and worse, Pauline, but in the end, where else would any of us rather live? God bless the United States of America."

And if you peruse the thread in its entirety, you will note a couple such lapses in Winnipeger's ability to keep track of his own bullshit. Thats the problem with being a frigging LIAR; if you aren't very good at it, you lose track of your own bullshit and your dishonesty becomes your undoing. Winnipeger/alec/brian/david/zeke/uzi is a perfect example of this simple premise. My suggestion to him (Her??? It???) would be to just get the hell out of the closet with his idiotic bullshit, and cop to his blind allegiance to a country, (and its policies), that he is UNABLE TO DEFEND except through deception and masquerade. Really, I believe he is as clueless as Rumsfeld showed himself to be yesterday. Everyone in the room saw how pathetically unrealistic Rummie's comments were, except Rummie himself. Winnipeger obviously is just as delusional, and surely, just as pathetic. Perhaps this comment will enitice him to reflect on his own inability to convincingly bullshit a blog full of reasonably intelligent posters, and he will offer us the apology that is warranted by his application of such condenscension here.

I believe the damned fool's ego has outlived his common sense.

"Why aren't we talking about getting rid of Saudi Arabia or Peru or China or Germany any one of which has done some pretty bad things to others and to its indigenous populations?"

Well, because we are currently working on getting rid of Cuba, Venezuela, Syria, Iraq, and Iran.

Any more questions?

Posted by Pissed Off American at October 28, 2006 12:48 AM
Posted by Pissed Off American at October 28, 2006 01:05 AM
>>>>>>>>>

BRAVO TWICE POA!
I am reminded of that quote about how when you try to tell the truth, people first make fun of you, then they attack you, then you win....

If our goverment wasn't in the thrall of AIPAC and other corruption and so committed to remaking the ME for Isrmerica's benefit and greed maybe we could find the moral fortitude to address some real time victims like the Palestines and the Africans getting hacked up and killed and a few other things like starvation around the world.

But here's some more truth some people won't like that confirms exactly what the American Jew who visited Israel also said over at TPM. I am seeing more reports in the overseas papers that say like Seale does in this article, that something bigger and still more lethal is being planned by the Israelis for Palestine. I hope they are wrong but I doubt nothing Israel would do now after Lebanon.

Israel's scandalous siege of Gaza
Patrick Seale International Herald Tribune

Published: October 27, 2006


Israel has killed 2,300 Gazans over the past six years, including 300 in the four months since an Israeli soldier, Corporal Gilad Shalit, was captured in a cross-border raid by Palestinian fighters on June 25. The wounded can be counted in the tens of thousands. Most of the casualties are civilians, many of them children.

The killing continues on a daily basis - by tank and sniper fire, by air and sea bombardment, and by undercover teams in civilian clothes sent into Arab territory to ambush and murder, an Israeli specialty perfected over the past several decades.

How long will the "international community" allow the slaughter to continue? The cruel repression of the occupied territories, and of Gaza in particular, is one of the most scandalous in the world today. It is the blackest stain on Israel's patchy record as a would-be democratic state.

Some form of intervention is urgently required, perhaps in the form of an international force on the border between Israel and Gaza, to protect each side from the other, to allow some air into the moribund Gaza economy, and to bring relief to a humanitarian catastrophe.

Prime Minister Tony Blair of Britain - verbally, at least, a staunch supporter of a two-state solution - must feel a certain sense of guilt at having failed to persuade President George W. Bush to advance the cause of Palestinian self-determination. By joining Bush in the invasion of Iraq, he may have imagined he could persuade the president to advance the Israeli- Palestinian peace process. He had counted without Washington's pro-Israeli neoconservatives, and their influence on Bush's Middle East policy.

Far from reining in the Israeli hawks, messianic settlers, Arab-killers and expansionists, Bush gave them a completely free hand - and continues to do so.

This may explain why Blair, addressing his last Labour Party conference a month ago, announced that he would make resolving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict the priority of his remaining time in office. Alas, no action has followed these brave words, save for a suggestion that Britain would help the Palestinians to build institutions.

Institutions? What fantasy world does Blair inhabit? One and a half million Palestinians, two-thirds of them under the poverty line, suffering 45 percent unemployment, packed into a narrow strip of 360 square kilometers, are being besieged, starved, cut off from the world and bombed on a daily basis, and Blair talks about building Palestinian institutions! How about stopping the killing first? Does Britain's word count for nothing?

I have scoured British government Web sites and have found stirring speeches and statements by the Foreign Secretary Margaret Beckett and other officials about Iraq, Africa, Afghanistan, climate change and so forth, but not a word about the ongoing criminal subjugation of Gaza.

It has been left to Jan Egeland, the UN humanitarian affairs coordinator, to describe Gaza as a "ticking bomb" and to warn of a social explosion. To end the shameful boycott of the democratically elected Hamas government, there are rumors that Mahmoud Abbas, president of the Palestinian Authority, may appoint Munib al-Masri, a rich businessman from Nablus, to head a government of independent technocrats. At the time of writing, however, Hamas had not agreed to stand aside.

The endurance of Gaza is legendary, but even the bravest man must falter when he can no longer feed his children and his home is reduced to rubble.

The situation is all the more urgent because, according to reports from Israel, something bigger and still more lethal is in prospect. Fresh from the indiscriminate slaughter they unleashed on Lebanon this summer - and no doubt eager to efface the memory of that fiasco - Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, Defense Minister Amir Peretz, and the chief of staff, General Dan Halutz, are said to be about to mount a military offensive against Gaza, on a far larger scale than the bombardments and armored incursions of recent months.

Their declared aim is to put an end once and for all to the home-made Qassam rockets that defiant Palestinians still manage to fire from time to time into the Israeli Negev. These are highly irritating but largely ineffectual weapons. Five Israelis have been killed by these rockets in the past six years.

Another wider Israeli aim is to destroy Hamas and root out all armed Palestinian opposition to Israel in the Gaza Strip. General Halutz has been making lurid statements to the effect that Hamas and other Palestinian groups have smuggled millions of dollars worth of weapons into Gaza from Egypt - including antitank and antiaircraft weapons as well tons of explosives - and have built a whole underground city to store their arsenal. Gaza, he declares, cannot be allowed to become another Lebanon.

Israel has already partially reoccupied the so-called Philadelphi corridor on the Gaza-Egyptian border in an attempt to put an end to cross-border tunneling and smuggling.

In the West Bank, the situation is less violent but in its way just as desperate. According to UN officials on the spot, the territory has been fragmented by no fewer than 528 Israeli military checkpoints, a 40 percent rise since August, which severely restrict Palestinian freedom of movement.

Not only has the territory been chopped up into three regions, but even within these zones Palestinian communities are isolated from each other, making it very difficult for people to reach their land or gain access to basic services such as health and education. As the economy stagnates and the population suffers, Israel's separation wall continues to gobble up Palestinian land, while dozens of illegal settlements enjoy a building boom.

Even more disturbing than the silence from London at these developments, and the collusion of Washington, is the entry into the Israeli government of Avigdor Lieberman, as deputy prime minister.

Born in Moldova, Lieberman, a burly 48-year-old, came to Israel at the age of 20. He is the leader of the far-right Yisrael Beitenu ("Israel Our Home") a party composed mainly of Russian immigrants.

Best known for having recommended flooding Egypt by bombing the Aswan Dam, he is an ardent champion of the settlers and opposes any withdrawal from Palestinian territory. His solution is the "transfer" of Arabs out of Israel so as to create an ethnically pure country. He has advocated death for any Arab members of the Knesset who dare to meet members of Hezbollah or Hamas. In any truly democratic country he would be denounced and shunned as a dangerous fascist.

Instead, Lieberman is to be given the job of formulating Israeli policy regarding the "strategic threat" facing the country - a code word for Iran's nuclear activities. As Haaretz, the left-of- center Israeli daily, commented: "The choice of the most unrestrained and irresponsible man around for this job constitutes a strategic threat in its own right."

The fact that Lieberman will have access to Israel's atomic secrets - and will serve in fact as a sort of super-defense minister - must be a source of considerable anxiety, seeing that Israeli leaders and commentators have repeatedly hinted that if the United States fails to strike Iran, Israel may feel compelled to do so. With Lieberman's entry into the government, the Israeli- Iranian confrontation, one of the most dangerous in a volatile region, will be ratcheted up a notch or two.

The Labor Party leader, Amir Peretz - already a huge disappointment to the left for his bellicose policies in Lebanon and Gaza - seems quite happy to sit at the same cabinet table with a notorious racist.

With the world's attention focused on the unfolding disaster in Iraq, on the resurgence of the Taliban in Afghanistan, and on how to how to moderate Iran's nuclear ambitions - three problems for which no credible solutions have yet been proposed - the Palestinians continue to bleed, starve and suffer unimaginable humiliations and hardships under Israel's pitiless rule.

Patrick Seale, a leading British writer on the Middle East, is the author of "The Struggle for Syria," "Assad of Syria: The Struggle for the Middle East" and "Abu Nidal: A Gun for Hire." Distributed by Agence Global.
Israel has killed 2,300 Gazans over the past six years, including 300 in the four months since an Israeli soldier, Corporal Gilad Shalit, was captured in a cross-border raid by Palestinian fighters on June 25. The wounded can be counted in the tens of thousands. Most of the casualties are civilians, many of them children.

The killing continues on a daily basis - by tank and sniper fire, by air and sea bombardment, and by undercover teams in civilian clothes sent into Arab territory to ambush and murder, an Israeli specialty perfected over the past several decades.

How long will the "international community" allow the slaughter to continue? The cruel repression of the occupied territories, and of Gaza in particular, is one of the most scandalous in the world today. It is the blackest stain on Israel's patchy record as a would-be democratic state.

Some form of intervention is urgently required, perhaps in the form of an international force on the border between Israel and Gaza, to protect each side from the other, to allow some air into the moribund Gaza economy, and to bring relief to a humanitarian catastrophe.

Prime Minister Tony Blair of Britain - verbally, at least, a staunch supporter of a two-state solution - must feel a certain sense of guilt at having failed to persuade President George W. Bush to advance the cause of Palestinian self-determination. By joining Bush in the invasion of Iraq, he may have imagined he could persuade the president to advance the Israeli- Palestinian peace process. He had counted without Washington's pro-Israeli neoconservatives, and their influence on Bush's Middle East policy.

Far from reining in the Israeli hawks, messianic settlers, Arab-killers and expansionists, Bush gave them a completely free hand - and continues to do so.

This may explain why Blair, addressing his last Labour Party conference a month ago, announced that he would make resolving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict the priority of his remaining time in office. Alas, no action has followed these brave words, save for a suggestion that Britain would help the Palestinians to build institutions.

Institutions? What fantasy world does Blair inhabit? One and a half million Palestinians, two-thirds of them under the poverty line, suffering 45 percent unemployment, packed into a narrow strip of 360 square kilometers, are being besieged, starved, cut off from the world and bombed on a daily basis, and Blair talks about building Palestinian institutions! How about stopping the killing first? Does Britain's word count for nothing?

I have scoured British government Web sites and have found stirring speeches and statements by the Foreign Secretary Margaret Beckett and other officials about Iraq, Africa, Afghanistan, climate change and so forth, but not a word about the ongoing criminal subjugation of Gaza.

It has been left to Jan Egeland, the UN humanitarian affairs coordinator, to describe Gaza as a "ticking bomb" and to warn of a social explosion. To end the shameful boycott of the democratically elected Hamas government, there are rumors that Mahmoud Abbas, president of the Palestinian Authority, may appoint Munib al-Masri, a rich businessman from Nablus, to head a government of independent technocrats. At the time of writing, however, Hamas had not agreed to stand aside.

The endurance of Gaza is legendary, but even the bravest man must falter when he can no longer feed his children and his home is reduced to rubble.

The situation is all the more urgent because, according to reports from Israel, something bigger and still more lethal is in prospect. Fresh from the indiscriminate slaughter they unleashed on Lebanon this summer - and no doubt eager to efface the memory of that fiasco - Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, Defense Minister Amir Peretz, and the chief of staff, General Dan Halutz, are said to be about to mount a military offensive against Gaza, on a far larger scale than the bombardments and armored incursions of recent months.

Their declared aim is to put an end once and for all to the home-made Qassam rockets that defiant Palestinians still manage to fire from time to time into the Israeli Negev. These are highly irritating but largely ineffectual weapons. Five Israelis have been killed by these rockets in the past six years.

Another wider Israeli aim is to destroy Hamas and root out all armed Palestinian opposition to Israel in the Gaza Strip. General Halutz has been making lurid statements to the effect that Hamas and other Palestinian groups have smuggled millions of dollars worth of weapons into Gaza from Egypt - including antitank and antiaircraft weapons as well tons of explosives - and have built a whole underground city to store their arsenal. Gaza, he declares, cannot be allowed to become another Lebanon.

Israel has already partially reoccupied the so-called Philadelphi corridor on the Gaza-Egyptian border in an attempt to put an end to cross-border tunneling and smuggling.

In the West Bank, the situation is less violent but in its way just as desperate. According to UN officials on the spot, the territory has been fragmented by no fewer than 528 Israeli military checkpoints, a 40 percent rise since August, which severely restrict Palestinian freedom of movement.

Not only has the territory been chopped up into three regions, but even within these zones Palestinian communities are isolated from each other, making it very difficult for people to reach their land or gain access to basic services such as health and education. As the economy stagnates and the population suffers, Israel's separation wall continues to gobble up Palestinian land, while dozens of illegal settlements enjoy a building boom.

Even more disturbing than the silence from London at these developments, and the collusion of Washington, is the entry into the Israeli government of Avigdor Lieberman, as deputy prime minister.

Born in Moldova, Lieberman, a burly 48-year-old, came to Israel at the age of 20. He is the leader of the far-right Yisrael Beitenu ("Israel Our Home") a party composed mainly of Russian immigrants.

Best known for having recommended flooding Egypt by bombing the Aswan Dam, he is an ardent champion of the settlers and opposes any withdrawal from Palestinian territory. His solution is the "transfer" of Arabs out of Israel so as to create an ethnically pure country. He has advocated death for any Arab members of the Knesset who dare to meet members of Hezbollah or Hamas. In any truly democratic country he would be denounced and shunned as a dangerous fascist.

Instead, Lieberman is to be given the job of formulating Israeli policy regarding the "strategic threat" facing the country - a code word for Iran's nuclear activities. As Haaretz, the left-of- center Israeli daily, commented: "The choice of the most unrestrained and irresponsible man around for this job constitutes a strategic threat in its own right."

The fact that Lieberman will have access to Israel's atomic secrets - and will serve in fact as a sort of super-defense minister - must be a source of considerable anxiety, seeing that Israeli leaders and commentators have repeatedly hinted that if the United States fails to strike Iran, Israel may feel compelled to do so. With Lieberman's entry into the government, the Israeli- Iranian confrontation, one of the most dangerous in a volatile region, will be ratcheted up a notch or two.

The Labor Party leader, Amir Peretz - already a huge disappointment to the left for his bellicose policies in Lebanon and Gaza - seems quite happy to sit at the same cabinet table with a notorious racist.

With the world's attention focused on the unfolding disaster in Iraq, on the resurgence of the Taliban in Afghanistan, and on how to how to moderate Iran's nuclear ambitions - three problems for which no credible solutions have yet been proposed - the Palestinians continue to bleed, starve and suffer unimaginable humiliations and hardships under Israel's pitiless rule.

Patrick Seale, a leading British writer on the Middle East, is the author of "The Struggle for Syria," "Assad of Syria: The Struggle for the Middle East" and "Abu Nidal: A Gun for Hire." Distributed by Agence Global.

Video clip of Wolf Blitzer and Norman Finkelstein debating Isreal's badly handled military-political tactical dilemma.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-8aTGnjHnI

"Why aren't we talking about getting rid of Saudi Arabia or Peru or China or Germany any one of which has done some pretty bad things to others and to its indigenous populations?"

Well, because we are currently working on getting rid of Cuba, Venezuela, Syria, Iraq, and Iran.

Any more questions?

Posted by Pissed Off American

Gee, I forgot to mention Haiti, another country chosen for a session under Bush's eraser.

Come on folks. Stop the flaming commentary.

This is not the place -- and I don't have patiene or tolerance for anything that veers into large scale character and moral assassination of groups of people.

Cut it out. Have a civil discussion about policy, culture, history, grievances -- what should be done...what shouldn't be done. This all can be accomplished without the character assassination. So, stop it.

Thank you.

Steve Clemons

"Have a civil discussion about policy, culture, history, grievances -- what should be done...what shouldn't be done."

Gosh Steve, we tried. But then we were reminded that such an exercise is in fact "anti-semitic". Shame on us for being offended.

Gee, maybe I should atone. Wheres my checkbook? I understand AIPAC needs our money more than we do.

"But you see, Carroll, despite her many links, has repeatedly said that anti-Semitism doesn't exist or doesn't exist very much, that it's mostly something that exists in the minds of some Jews and is mostly fomented by Jewish leaders to manipulate Jews."

I have never seen Carroll deny the existence of anti-semitism. EVER. If you have seen her do so, please provide a direct quote, and where it may be found."

Then you haven't been reading her comments very closely. Look back a few threads, and you'll find her talking about this book, written by a Jew, the thesis of which is that anti-Semitism is largely a function of Jews' own neurosis. That is just one place where she's made this claim. But I qualified my statement by saying "very much." Carroll would never say anti-Semitism doesn't exist at all. But this has a huge bearing on this discussion because, of course, the zionist movement grew out of Jewish reaction to millenias of anti-Semitism and persecution, which culimated in the Holocaust. And it continues today, in a milder form, as DIL showed with this FBI post.

I'm not willing to spend time looking for Carroll's quotes if she's not willing to cop to her own position, or clarify that she's changed her position. It's a waste of my time.

All that said, however, I would NEVER say that any and all criticism of Israel is ipso facto anti-Semitic. And if I have, I retract that right now. Israel NEEDS criticism, especially from its ally, the US. I take that as a given. Most Israelis take that as a given. The debate in Israel is far more robust than it is here.

As to "why are we talking about getting rid of Saudi Arabia..." I'm referring, of course, to the debate on the left, not the actions of the Administration. My point was and is that these countries have committed crimes...and still do in some cases...much worse than anything Israel has done...certainly under comparable external pressures...and yet their very existence is never called into question. No one ever says, "Wouldn't it be a good idea if SA never existed or ceased to exist." No one ever calls them artificial countries, and yet, in many ways, they are as artificial as Israel--they've just managed to hang around longer.

Certainly, if you want to find a "racist" regime, there is no better poster boy for this than Saudi Arabia. And yet has the UN ever condemned SA as racist? Not that I'm aware of. The double standard just goes on for miles and miles.

You are really off the wall, "POA." I strongly suggest you seek some help. you are VERY paranoid.

I have no idea why you accuse me of being a "troll."
It seems that you spend WAY too much time on here analyzing comments and hatching conspracy theories about how others are deceiving you. bizarro. maybe they have a 12 step program for people like you.

didn't someone else suggest that you start your OWN blog instead of shitting all over this one??

...and when did I ever say that I live in Canada?

"I'm just a random Canadian who linked to this site after Steve was quoted in our local paper."

Posted by Winnipeger

Well, MP, I see you cannot back up your claims as to Carroll's denial of the existence of anti-semitism. Nor can you back up your claim that Carroll has posted material from Aryan web sites. I would say you owe her an apology.

But you won't apologize, because if you had the character to recognize the need for amends, you would have had the character not to lie about Carroll's statements and sources.

Perhaps you and the fraudulent Canadian should re-assess your ability to concoct lies that effectively mask your inability to debate with any integrity. I mean, geez, doesn't trying to hide your lack of character by exhibiting a lack of character seem somewhat self-defeating to you?

Again, I see two options for you; One, supply us with a direct quote from Carroll that affirms your assertion that she has denied the existence of anti-semitism, or two, apologize. Of course there IS a third option. You can do neither, and be seen as a liar. Welcome to Winnipeger's domain.

"Well, MP, I see you cannot back up your claims as to Carroll's denial of the existence of anti-semitism. Nor can you back up your claim that Carroll has posted material from Aryan web sites. I would say you owe her an apology.

But you won't apologize, because if you had the character to recognize the need for amends, you would have had the character not to lie about Carroll's statements and sources."

You need to learn how to read. First of all, I didn't say that Carroll believes that anti-Semitism doesn't exist. Here's the money quote: "But I qualified my statement by saying "very much." Carroll would never say anti-Semitism doesn't exist at all." Nor have I ever said that Carroll posted material from Aryan sites. Christ, try to read just a little bit.

Again, here is the money quote, where I'm talking to Carroll: "My point was just that just because your Jewish friends have never experienced anti-Semitism doesn't mean it doesn't exist...or exists only among small minorities, such as the Aryan Nation."

I brought up the Aryan nation because SHE had. Here's the quote from her: "I don't doubt there is some real anti-semitism..I have seen references to some Ayran hate sites and so forth..."

She wasn't posting material from AN...nor was she saying she had...nor did I say she had...but she was saying that anti-Semitism was pretty much, maybe not entirely, but pretty much confined to fringe sites like that of the AN and a "small minority."

Then, sedemtri came up with the unfortunate (for her claim) site from the FBI and DIL posted it.

So, there you have it, all from this thread. As far as her (much) earlier comments about anti-Semitism being MOSTLY in the minds of neurotic Jews...and the book by the Jewish female author...it's up to Carroll to cop to it, clarify it, or ignore it, if that's how she feels. But I certainly don't owe her an apology.

"I'm just a random Canadian who linked to this site after Steve was quoted in our local paper."

Posted by Winnipeger

well, genius, did I say I live in Canada? I'm a Canadian by birth and an American by choice.

well, genius, did I say I live in Canada? I'm a Canadian by birth and an American by choice.

Posted by Winnipeger

Yeah, thats why you told us you discovered Clemons through mention on the "Globe and Mail".

You're a lousy liar. You should stop making such an ass of yourself. Anyone reading this thread can plainly see that you tried to pass yourself off as a Canadian living in Winnipeg. Do you REALLY think anyone here is stupid enough to buy into your bullshit? If you are going to lie to us, at least have the decency create a halfway decent fantasy. Gads, you would have thought you would have learned a lesson as alec, when you tried to foist that bullshit quote off on us.

Yeah, thats why you told us you discovered Clemons through mention on the "Globe and Mail".

You're a lousy liar. You should stop making such an ass of yourself. Anyone reading this thread can plainly see that you tried to pass yourself off as a Canadian living in Winnipeg. Do you REALLY think anyone here is stupid enough to buy into your bullshit? If you are going to lie to us, at least have the decency create a halfway decent fantasy. Gads, you would have thought you would have learned a lesson as alec, when you tried to foist that bullshit quote off on us.
Posted by Pissed Off American at October 28, 2006 11:18 PM

You are a COMPLETE FREAK!!! Really, I won't bother repsonding to your inane and paranoid posts any longer. Really, what does it matter who I am and where I live? Why would anyone bother to lie about any of these details??

I will admit that I am curious about who YOU are and where you live? My guess is that you're an angry old man not liked or loved by many. But, I can tell you this... you're a complete ASSHOLE on this blog.

Did it ever occur to you that some people read newspapers online?!

"Really, what does it matter who I am and where I live?"

It doesn't. Now, having had settled that, don't you feel like an ass for having had lied to us about it?

"Did it ever occur to you that some people read newspapers online?!"

Since when did the "Globe and Mail" become a "local newspaper" anywhere in the United States?? Gads, when you dig yourself a hole, you sure dig a DEEP one, don't you?

My suggestion to you is that you slink away and dream up another screen name. The one you are currently using just lost its last vestige of credibility.

So, there you have it, all from this thread. As far as her (much) earlier comments about anti-Semitism being MOSTLY in the minds of neurotic Jews...and the book by the Jewish female author...it's up to Carroll to cop to it, clarify it, or ignore it, if that's how she feels. But I certainly don't owe her an apology.

Posted by MP at October 28, 2006 07:39 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Well I am going to make one last statement on this because it has gone beyond ridiculous.

1) I "Have" said that I don't think the world is nearly as anti-semitic as MP and winnipeger claim it is.

2) I have "Never" said anti-semitism doesn't exist. Obviously it does.

3) I have said that I think "some" ...as in SOME ..jews have been "taught", "told" or 'warned" that they are 'different' and that non jews are anti-semitic. Valid as it is for Jews to be taught the holocaust, it is not vaild to me to teach Jews to "Expect" anti-semitism from non jews,that itself is bigoted. I have also said that I agree in part with Jacquline Rose who wrote "The Question of Zion" that SOME jews are attracted to the 'special" aspect of victimhood. Nothing new about that well documented aspect in social studies. It's an acknowledged phenomenon in which some people gravitate to groups or religions that see themselves as persecuted for whatever reason, some valid, some imaginary. If you want to take it to the extreme you can think about the Jim Jones people. However no where did I say that this applied to ALL jews or to ONLY jews. Obviously is doesn't.
But I stand by my opinion about SOME JEWS having this condition because I have seen a few cases in here where an individual is totally paranoid..or so it seems to me. Again this is my opinion, in agreement with Rose, of a "social phenomenon" that occurs among SOME jews and SOME gentiles or SOME Muslims and every other race, religion. Now, that whole discussion was about this particular PHENOMENON, not a arguement about whether anti-semitism actually exist or not, NOT a position that ALL THE JEWS IN THE WORLD ARE NEUROTIC. So put it to bed.

I have made myself CRYSTAL CLEAR a dozen times.

I am opposed to AIPAC and lobbies like it in this country.
I am opposed to Israel's goverment and their occupation of Palestine and their agressive actions.
I DO NOT CARE if Israel is jewish, buddhist or catholic, I would be saying the same thing. No one, NO ONE has a get out of jail free card for their actions, No Matter what has happened to their ancestors in the past. Not Jews or anyone else.

Now, you do owe me an apology but I don't expect one because you are too ingrained in your own preudice and narrow identity and EVERYTHING is about you and about your being a jew. It would still be about YOU and YOUR identity if you were Muslim except you would be calling everyone infidels instead of anti-semites, or about YOU if you were a Evangelical where you would be calling us all heathens and devils.

I am done with your sick, self indulgent, the whole is world is about YOU being a Jew, navel gazing. If people don't like you I can assure you it's becuase you are you, not because you are a Jew.

I can't let Carroll get the last word in this thread. She is an ignorant fool who apparently hasn't ventured much further than her front porch.
As she most foolishly writes:

"I agree in part with Jacquline Rose who wrote "The Question of Zion" that SOME jews are attracted to the 'special" aspect of victimhood. Nothing new about that well documented aspect in social studies. It's an acknowledged phenomenon in which some people gravitate to groups or religions that see themselves as persecuted for whatever reason, some valid, some imaginary."

I can assure you that Jewish victimhood throught millenia is NOt imaginary. I can assure you that no Jew I know is "attracted" to the fact that many of their grandparents, aunts and uncles were burned in ovens only 60 years ago. I can assure you that no Jew I know "gravitated" towards Judaism; for better or worse, it's a birthright.

And let us never forget the compassionate words of our most vile and self-righteous contributor:

"I am seriously thinking of forming my own Soccer-Mom's Mossad, ripping the intestines out of these blooding sucking Israeli parasites and neo pond scum and shoving them down their throats."

Way to go, Carroll! You sure know how to create a better, more peaceful future.

"I have said that I think "some" ...as in SOME ..jews have been "taught", "told" or 'warned" that they are 'different' and that non jews are anti-semitic. "

Carroll, if this had been your meaning--that SOME Jews gravitate toward victimhood-- you wouldn't have gotten any argument from me. But that clearly was not your meaning, and not at all what you conveyed. You're being dishonest or you've deluded yourself into thinking you didn't say what you did in fact say.

You can call me names--that's what it always seems to come down to here--but I understand English and the written word.

I also understand that it's very hard for a member of the majority culture to understand what all the fuss is about. When we walk into a parking garage, my wife feels unsafe; I don't. Who's right?

As I said my conversations with you are done.

People like you and winnipeger want to believe the whole world is anti-semitic and want everyone in the world to agree that they are all anti-semitic so they will acquiesce their own opinions to your beliefs and views on anything said about Israel or any subject that involves jews because you happen to be a jew.

Sorry, that just isn't the reality. You can cherry pick statements, distort and bait to try to change the subject on Israel and the ME forever, my position is here for anyone who cares about this mud slinging contest to see.

happy trails.....

"People like you and winnipeger want to believe the whole world is anti-semitic and want everyone in the world to agree that they are all anti-semitic so they will acquiesce their own opinions to your beliefs and views on anything said about Israel or any subject that involves jews because you happen to be a jew.

Sorry, that just isn't the reality. You can cherry pick statements, distort and bait to try to change the subject on Israel and the ME forever, my position is here for anyone who cares about this mud slinging contest to see."

Sorry...as anyone who's been reading these threads can attest, I have never said anything even remotely like any of this. But you have made many outrageous comments about Israel--stuff that even a fifth grader would laugh at. And you try to pass it off as fact. And yes, I do wonder why--especially when there are so many legitimate ways to criticize the state.

"People like you and winnipeger want to believe the whole world is anti-semitic and want everyone in the world to agree that they are all anti-semitic so they will acquiesce their own opinions to your beliefs and views on anything said about Israel or any subject that involves jews because you happen to be a jew."

Carroll, I have a question for you: How do you see your computer monitor to type this crap when your head is so far up your ass??

Do you walk on two legs or four??

"I am seriously thinking of forming my own Soccer-Mom's Mossad, ripping the intestines out of these blooding sucking Israeli parasites and neo pond scum and shoving them down their throats."

Awesome, carroll!

MP,

Carroll has consistently and courageously made a legitimate argument of critical concern for our nation, .... I mean our one and only USA!!!

Just like Carroll, I used to view you as a reasonable Israeli defender. But as the debate gets more serious, I am sad to see your colors come out...

Here is the thing. Despite all the influence and intimidation, we have started to debate it and make it a serious issue, becasue we are paying for it in blood, money, our concise and future. America used to influence and confront the powerful to protect the weak, not get influenced to supress them.

So, I say to ... Carroll keep up the fight! ...the silent majority is watching !!!!!!!!!

MP,

Carroll has consistently and courageously made a legitimate argument of critical concern for our nation, .... I mean our one and only USA!!!

Just like Carroll, I used to view you as a reasonable Israeli defender. But as the debate gets more serious, I am sad to see your colors come out...

Here is the thing. Despite all the influence and intimidation, we have started to debate it and make it a serious issue, becasue we are paying for it in blood, money, our concise and future. America used to influence and confront the powerful to protect the weak, not get influenced to supress them.

So, I say to ... Carroll keep up the fight! ...the silent majority is watching !!!!!!!!!
Posted by KOJ at October 29, 2006 07:10

Damn. Carroll has all the smartest fans!

When we walk into a parking garage, my wife feels unsafe; I don't. Who's right?

Posted by MP

She is. But she'll be OK if she doesn't turn her back to you.

"And yes, I do wonder why--especially when there are so many legitimate ways to criticize the state."

Posted by MP

Well, thats ironic, because if true, it should also hold true that there are many legitimate ways to DEFEND the state as well. But I sure don't see many being offered. But we can ALWAYS depend on this "anti-semite" horseshit being cast by some third rate lyin' troll like this Winnipeger clown. Or, by YOU. ANY criticism of Israel ALWAYS draws the accusation of "anti-semitism". I repeat; ALWAYS. Some of us are sick of it. I AM NOT ANTI-SEMITIC. And I will continue to point out Israel's grave human rights abuses. And you or any other Israeli apologist that continues to drool this "anti-semitic" crap at me can just kiss my ass.

What Israel is doing in Gaza, and what they have done in Lebanon, is a CRIME of epic proportions, and I am ASHAMED of my country's complicity.

...and you anti-Israel trolls are just as distasteful and off-color.

POA: "Well, thats ironic, because if true, it should also hold true that there are many legitimate ways to DEFEND the state as well. But I sure don't see many being offered. But we can ALWAYS depend on this "anti-semite" horseshit being cast by some third rate lyin' troll like this Winnipeger clown. Or, by YOU."

Yes, there are a lot of ways to legitimately defend the state--but not all of its actions. However, when the illegitimate ones come to the fore...I do wonder what's driving that, as any reasonable person would.

KOJ writes: "Carroll has consistently and courageously made a legitimate argument of critical concern for our nation, .... I mean our one and only USA!!! Just like Carroll, I used to view you as a reasonable Israeli defender. But as the debate gets more serious, I am sad to see your colors come out..."

I agree: it is a legitimate argument of critical concern for our nation. Couldn't agree more. However, when certain kinds of "arguments" are made, I have to wonder what's behind the vitriol. For example, arguing that what the Israelis are doing to the Pals is worse than what we did to blacks over 400 years of slavery and after is ludicrous.

Also, relegating anti-Semitism to sort of a fringe phenomenon, as she has done, also changes the debate in my mind. Without the persistence of anti-Semitism over millenia, and then the Holocaust, THERE WOULD BE NO ISRAEL MORE THAN LIKELY. It's possible, even, that had the US said after WWII, "We'll take all the Jews and give them safe harbor," there might not be an Israel today--less likely, but possible.

When you look at the huge number of Jewish "disappeareds" in Argentina...when you look at the rise of anti-Jewish hate acts in Europe...when you look at the statistic sedemetri dug up about religiously motivate hate crimes right here...I think it's odd that someone who has studied this issue closely would leave out, or downplay the one factor that is a driving motivation for one party to this conflict. It's just weird, and I wonder about it.

It's like putting together an engine and leaving out the pistons and wondering why the engine doesn't work--you're leaving out an essential part.

But I will state this for the record: I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT CRITCIZING ISRAEL--EVEN SEVERELY--MEANS THAT A PERSON IS ANTI-SEMITIC. THERE IS A LOT TO CRITICIZE. I happen to believe that Israel would be a lot better off without the right wing support, Jewish and Christian, that it's getting and that's getting all the attention. I also believe that Israel has a huge amount of good to offer its neighbors and the ME in general if peace can ever be achieved.

Also for the record, I don't believe that Carroll (or POA for that matter) or most of the posters here are anti-Semitic. But I do wonder where a lot of the bizarre stuff I read here comes from—that is to say, what motivates it and where its content comes from.

Winnipeger, I have just exposed you, irrefutably, as being a damned liar.

Haven't you made a big enough ass of yourself? Just go away, will you?

As I already said,

you anti-Israel trolls are just as distasteful and off-color as anyone else.

And guess what? I won't go away. Will you?

And how, pray tell, have you "exposed me, irrefutably, as being a damned liar?

Still think I'm "alec?" Still insist on calling me a troll? Still think you know where I live? Knock yourself out, gringo.