It will be interesting to see if Sarah Palin’s colloquialisms played well with the public. I hope not. Selecting a candidate because they sound like the gal next store is a very destructive habit on the part of the American electorate. George Bush sounded like the guy next store. How did that work out?

Sarah Palin won the race for call-ins to the McKenzie Bros. on local access Canada.

Steve....seems like the only thing left for you to do is endorse
Obama and Biden... Just make it official and quit claiming to be undecided.

Not one question on women's issue. Are reproductive rights too controversial? Very disappointing.

BTW, Sarah Palin does a great Tina Fey.

Birth control was too dicey, fundies oppose it, but Palin's daughter kind of mollifies the debate point.

Meanwhile, back in working America,
it's Banned Books Week at your local library or bookstore.

Be sure to catch some authentic readings of books challenged by fundies and sometimes removed from shelves or classrooms at one of the better bookstores near you.

Holds her own?

This is like taking over at the Titanic's wheel.

Stay the course, record time!

I don't forgive Biden for letting Palin get away with that "white flag of surrender bit". He should have taken that and jammed it down her throat. (not meant to be sexist - they should do the same with McCain). Why not say "this is beneath the dignity of a person who wants to be vice president. Are you saying that that anyone who opposes your policies is a traitor? Are you saying those Iraqi Veterans against the War are waving that flag? The Iraqis want us out, the American public wants us out and you and McCain want us in - your saying those who disagree with this policy of spending even more lives and dollars on a war that was based on disinformation to the American public and the world from the first, and for which even the Iraqi government wants a deadline on the presence of American troops, is in favor of surrender? I consider that to be an insult to to the American people and American principles.
But then again - Democrats.

They’ve Tanked the Economy, Trashed the Environment,
Wasted the Military, and Lied Us Into War.
Yippee, Elect Another Republican

Yucca Mountain,

As I wrote in my comment in the previous thread, Biden's job tonight wasn't to get into any passionate exchanges with Sarah Palin. His job was to pound away at George Bush and John McCain, and make the case for Barack Obama. The soundbites tomorrow should all be of Biden saying how bad Bush has been, and how bad McCain will be.

Palin gave Biden no serious flack, and was almost just a backdrop for an extended Biden stump speech, especially in the second half of the debate. She looked like she was just trying to get through the night unharmed, and was so relieved that she wasn't getting attacked that she forgot to give the country any positive reason to vote for McCain.

The FINAL WORD comes from "Not Surprised...":

"Steve...seems like the only thing left for you to do is endorse Obama and Biden...Just make it official and quit claiming to be undecided."

TWN = TPM = KOS

Shut it down. See ya in November. Piss, stock up on a month's worth of lube -- I'm OVER & OUT!
-- Tahoe Editor

--

Biden's outright lie: "Obama did not say he would sit down with Ahmadinejad."

Biden: "You've been very kind in saying I only have one Achilles' Heel. I have many."

Sarah: "Joe, you said you'd love to be on McCain's ticket."

Joe Biden: "Barack Obama and I want to do what Sarah did in Alaska. Impose a windfall profits tax."

--

http://thepage.time.com/halperins-grades-for-the-veep-debate/

http://nrd.nationalreview.com/article/?q=ODgzOWQ2NDk3NzExYjc2M2NlYWQwMjcyZmMzYzM4YWE=

http://michellemalkin.com/2008/10/02/sarah-rocks/

Bye bye, Tahoe!

Sen. Biden had more than a few moments in which he sounded as if he were making the case for a Biden administration, and realized this just in time to tack over to a mention of Sen. Obama. He also spoke of being an Obama administration's point man in Congress, which may be a misapprehension on his part of what he is likely to be asked to do.

On the other hand, Biden was the first Democrat in this campaign to come close to challenging the Republicans to say exactly how they would govern differently from George Bush. Since Sen. McCain has already committed to continue or expand President Bush's major policies on the economy, Iraq and other areas, and since President Bush just passed 70% disapproval, one would think every Democratic speech would contain at least some variant of this challenge. I mean, really -- if George Bush were not this unpopuular, would Sen. Obama even be a candidate?

No wreck for Gov. Palin, which I thought was too bad just from the standpoint of entertainment (let's face it, without wrecks NASCAR is just a bunch of cars going around in a circle, which is sort of what this debate felt like most of the time). The softball question, no follow-up format helped Palin a lot, as did the same moderator who took Dick Cheney and John Edwards through 90 minutes four years ago less than a year after Abu Ghraib without mentioning the detainee abuse scandal even once. But though Palin survived, and may have helped herself in GOP politics after this November, she didn't do much to help McCain.

I thought it was interesting that the one subject that seemed to engage Palin most passionately was Israel. There don't seem to be any limits to what she is prepared to do or say on the Jewish state's behalf. Unless the Bush Republican consultants and campaign operatives on Sen. McCain's payroll can keep her away from journalists for the rest of the campaign this could get her into trouble eventually.

Biden 'certainly' won but at the expense of losing the war.

The Democrats and the liberal intelligentsia cravenly to the end. They are calling for ending the war but not for winning it. So their "ending" will have the outcome of depriving their brave troops from a military victory that is at the threshold and bring them home with the shame of defeat hanging over them. Abjectly ignorant of the strategic repercussions of even a perceived defeat will have upon the continuation of this war in Afghanistan, as pledged by Obama and Biden, that will make this war even more difficult to win and thus foreshadowing a second greater defeat.

The Democrats and the nipple-fed intellectuals are like children playing with war toys.

Winning a hundred years of war in Iraq, where Sunni and Shi'ia have fought forever.

Toys aren't for war. Not even the mines we used in Afghanistan that were often mistaken for airborne relief packets.

Perhaps someone will ask her if we expect Israel to abide by nonproliferation like we've expected to impose on Iran and did as false justification to invade Iraq.

You really want to go down that path? Fool us twice, shame on Yoo!

Refusing to meet the Spanish leader when they are in NATO? Did the secret service detachment have to screen circus clowns to roll out of a car that drives to campaign sites when McCain says that?

Dan,
Gotta say I still think its ridiculous and bad form to let anyone get away with the white flag of surrender business, for reasons of both politics and honesty.

They’ve Tanked the Economy, Trashed the Environment,
Wasted the Military, and Lied Us Into War.
Yippee, Elect Another Republican

White flags, or pink slips? Which one do voters think is more possible based on the choices presented last night?

What is clear from the debate is that America is a seriously divided country, and that ain't good. There is no unity in the "heartland", with a horrendous gap where nearly half the country does not begin to understand the other half, or even want to, and the authoritarian branch regularly talks about shooting the other half for patriotic reasons. While much of that could be blamed on Bush the lesser for never passing an opportunity to double down on aggressive pursuit of a fatally flawed Neocon dream, where God is deemed to have finally lit and set up housekeeping on the shoulders of "this great nation", I think the real culprit is the maturation of American propaganda and its relentless pursuit of short term advantage. We now do it so very well. None better. Americans in significant enough numbers to invalidate a functional democracy are now not only content, but prefer to be driven from point to point, too busy busy busy, seeking all manner of diversion, to think or intellectually confront half baked ideas that elevate mention of a six pack to a position of adulation on the presidential stage. The public relations play book is now about eighty years old, and it is working just fine on "modern" Americans, thank you. Sarah Palin fits right into this unbrave fake world where pulling a trigger is regarded as an intellectual feat, and "diplomacy" is a word you have to use to get votes, even if you think diplomats are losers. I don't know which animal Palin is in Orwell's prose, but she is definitely there. The pity is that that a lot of people clearly see this happening, but they can't outfox or out-think the six pack. The Founding Fathers were exceptional because they could and did confront these very same issues. There were many "Americans" back then who thought having a king was a fine idea, and didn't want to dump the one they had. Must be a part of human nature because they are still here, and there are still power junkies who want to be king for all our own good. I have said it before: history may simply report that the Americans just didn't have what it takes to maintain a democracy. That probability seems to be increasing.

Sarah Palin did not pass the test, although she did better than I thought she would.
It was a case of using most of the same old talking points we have heard before...well rehearsed.
There were a good many questions she just did not answer.
I must admit I feel her command of the English language is awful....joe six pack...heck..darn and ya....is she auditioning for the Beverley Hillbiies?????
That kind of talk may be fine at home but I think a bit of decorum is required when fighting for such a high profile position.
This business of her being just a regular gal...to use a phrase by Pat Buchanan....to me is not good enough, we want someone who can take charge and has full command of the facts.
No,Sarah is definately not ready to be VP!!!

The majority of Americans are fed up with Iraq, and fatigued and exhausted by the Iraq War. We have been there forever. When Republican holdouts go on and on about fidelity to the great Iraqi cause and the dreaded white flag of surrender, they sound increasingly absurd. They might as well be saying "Remember the Maine!" or "Do not abandon our loyal South Vietnamese brothers!" They just sound like relics from a vanished era. That kind of language has no political bite anymore, so there is no reason for Democrats to get defensive about it. Just let the Republicans continue to dig their own graves.

Iraq has a government, and it was democratically elected. There is no more Saddam. By McCain's own lights the surge was a success, and the violence has been quelled. So we should just declare that our job is down there, and start to redeploy out of Iraq. Why does McCain want to fight a forever war now that the war is effectively over?

It would be interesting to see a comparison of Bush 2000 debate
footage versus Sarah Palin. As much as the bar was set low for
him, I imagine hers was set way lower. This dumbing down of
critical thinking skills is killing our country.

JamesL: "Outfox or out-think the six pack"? A brilliant
expression! Even the German philosopher Martin Heidegger
couldn`t have invented that phrase: out-thinking the six pack...
and I guess you`re right.

On a less metaphorical level, the funny thing is that due to the
habits among the upper classes in those days, the Founding
Fathers of The United States Of America probably were as drunk
as even Joe TwelvePack and Jill Boxed White Wine on a Saturday
night, when they formulated the principles and confronted the
above mentioned issues. And the Joe & Jill of those days were
on the same alcoholic level as the elite (if they didn`t belong to
one of the puritan communities).

Today, on a concrete, but also on a metaphorical level, there are
Inside-The-Beltway-Cocktail-Party equivalents, both to the
Founding fathers and Joe Six Pack and his honey Jill Boxed
White Wine. No offense intended, neither to the party goers nor
to Jill or Joe. I don`t want to spoil the fun.

But the double task is, as far as I see it, how to out-think not
only the six pack and the white wine box, but also the
Champagne and the exclusive wines - and these "out-thinking"
efforts should, BTW, strictly take place on a metaphorical level.

Sarah Palin won the cut puppy dog aspect of the debate. She seems to be a nice but not particularly deep person.

As such the debate was better than expected for the republican side but was still a loss.

People when they think about it, don't really want a winking barbie at the controls during complex dangerous times.

It is so clear, and has been from the beginning, that Palin has absolutely no business in this arena. To say anything otherwise is a bold lie justified through either gross damaging ignorance or gross damaging cynicism. I'm not sure which is worse.

It is a sad state of affairs when not embarrassing one's self is considered a positive for the candidate for the office of Vice President of the United States of America. Speaking in relatively coherent sentences is more appropriate for gauging a fifth graders progress rather than determining the readiness for the second highest elected office in the nation. Are these the benchmarks for worthiness to this high office? Is that the best we can expect?

Last night was another insult, in a long line of insults.

Tell me why any sane rational human being shouldn't just walk away from this nonsense where the powers that be try to spin, manipulate, lie, and obfuscate their way to power?

What a joke! Unfortunately and ultimately I think the joke is on us and we end up paying over and over again for this abomination! It doesn't ever seem to get better - it just seems to get worse.

MSM set the bar very low for Palin. We should answer the real
question: do we want her to represent our country? Can we trust
our country to her? Most time she talked with faked confidence
without real substance; quite a few times I don't think she even
understood the questions. Any one of us here could do better job
than her. Is that what we want for this country?

David Brooks must have been watching adifferent debate. He said he hardly heard Biden mention Obama. I heard Obama invoked repeatedly???

I thought Biden passed up multiple opportunities to slam Palin, but probably the strategy was to avoid that. As pointed out elsewhere, the no "follow up" format allowed Palin to slide on sound bites only.

BTW let's remember that Sarah Palin isn't just a winky twitchie barbie who doesn't know much. She is a dangerous commodity, with an endtimes theological bent who could not be counted on any more than Bill Kristol with a military command.

She and McCain have matching mean streaks. I don't see any genuine compassion in either of them. Obama and Biden have an intrinsic warmth and dignity that is missing in the others two.

I hope people realize that Palin was on her best behavior last night. She kept carefully hidden her strict, ideological religious and reproductive rights beliefs. Under that folksy exterior lies an intolerant science-denying tyrant who would easily match Cheney in his dismissive contempt of the American people.

I shudder to think of the advisors McCain and worse, Palin, would appoint.

Its interesting to me that Palin is being judged by these performances, rather than by her actual actions as mayor of Wasilla and Governor of Alaska. A careful examination of the catalogue of factual information that is available about Palin's actions, at times criminal, always vindictive, portray someone that is unfit for public office at ANY level. Cronyism, disdain for the rule of law, religious piety and fanaticism, a disregard for science, all traits and habits that George Bush has utilized to bring this nation to its knees.

And the huge effort McCain's operatives are expending in Alaska to impede, stall, and bury the Troopergate investigation is a story in and of itself, thats says as much about McCain's disrespect for the American people, truth, and the rule of law, as it says about Palin. The FACTS about Palin disqualify her. Yet, once again, the media fails us, as it ignores Palin's truckload of Alaskan baggage.

Are we really so naive as to ignore actual actions while placing stock in campaign rhetoric and carefully rehearsed talking points, aired in yet one more Washington skit?

Wig says: "It will be interesting to see if Sarah Palin’s
colloquialisms played well with the public. I hope not. Selecting
a candidate because they sound like the gal next store is a very
destructive habit on the part of the American electorate. George
Bush sounded like the guy next store. How did that work out?"

Wig and ej (at more length) say it all.

Droppin' gees is not a qualification for high office. We've had
that with GWB. It was absurd at the time. And we've lost so
much as a country--in every way--as a result.

A lot has been said on this site--and in the MSM--about not
picking on "the heartland." Not being mean to them. Not
putting them down. Not being sarcastic toward them.

Well look...the heartland voted overwhelmingly for GWB TWICE
and in the face of mounting evidence of his criminality and
disastrous stewardship. I'm sorry: If not outright dumb, they are
easily misled and manipulated.

As for the easily manipulated MSM, I think they're playing to the
heartland. Bring back elitism.

Tahoe, the Bushites still reign. We don't get any lubricant when we are being Bush fucked.

I suspect Palin/McCain intend to give us a jar of sand, marked with a Vaseline label.

If McCain-Palin loses the election, then it will be interesting to see what happens to Palin, i.e., will she be re-elected as governor of AK.

She may or may not then be a rising star in Republican Party--and may end up just having had her few months of national fame and fade into the political galaxies. But if she is back in 2012, she will not be given a pass by the media and will have to give interviews, press conferences, and answer the questions and follow-up questions.

I'm a bit weary of her, and she really isn't important (unless she makes a major goof) for the rest of this campaign that now can be about the candidates for President.

Was her mispronounciation of "nuclear" intentional to sound like Bush? Wigwag...Isn't the expression "girl next door", not store? The one word that leaps to mind on Palin for me is "gibberish"....

It was the "shout out" to her brother's 3rd grade class. No. Wait, it was the backwards syntax -- blaming man's activities on climate change. No, wait, it was refusing to answer the questions as asked (an automatic F in school!). No, wait, it was the winking and wrinkling nose and cute-itude. No, wait, it was the missed general's name. No, wait, it was messing up McC's postions. No, wait, it was the tone deaf response to Biden's near-tears. No, wait, it was "Can I call ya Joe?" No, wait, it was not knowing a thing about Hamas (thanks to Cenk Uygar for this one). No, wait, it was lumping the Castro brothers with.....AAARGHHHH.

I didn`t watch them live, but saw big parts of the discussion just
now. Sarah Palin seemed like a prepared, but very nervous school
girl with guts, Joe Biden like a friendly old politician who knew
what he was talking about.
My guess is that Joe six pack and Jill boxed white wine, if
they`re into psychology (which they certainly are), both would
sense that immediately, regardless of the issues.

Perhaps the most substantive point in the debate was Palin's
support of the 'Cheney Doctrine' on the vice presidency, and
Biden's strong rejection of it, and characterization of Cheney as
the most dangerous VP in our history.

That she referred to the Constitution and the Founders'
intentions (Founding Fathers, if you like) , strongly indicates that
this was coached and represents the fundamental position of the
McCain organization regarding the nature of the vice-presidency
and almost certainly the Executive and it's relation to the other
two branches.

Has McCain been asked his position on the Executive Orders
granting Cheney such extraordinary powers, and whether he
considers them permanent or expiring at the end of Bush's
term? Will the Unitary Executive be a hallmark of his
administration as well?

Florestan,

these are crucial questions. Since most people currently believe
that Obama will win, they don`t pay attention to this. But
anything - literally - could happen within the next four weeks,
and people should pay attention to this issue.

Umm... Palin won the debate, people can relate to her and like her. Sorry, I know everyone on this sight is a lefty. For the record, I think all the candidates are terrible choices, and it is like voting for the best of the worst. Joe didn't make any idiotic remarks like he usually does. One commenter had it right, he looked like an old politicion, with political speak, the same political speak we have been hearing for years. If you want more government and redistribution of wealth vote for the democraps. And we all want more government because they do a good job of not screwing things up! I do disagree with the bailout plan, I think it's a horrible idea. If you can't afford to buy a house, you shouldn't get a loan!!! Now we all get to pay for it!!

(I posted this in another thread by mistake, sorry)

Democrats will vote for the Democrat. Republicans will vote for the Republican. That’s how it has always been.
John McCain and Joe Biden are politicians. They know their numbers, and they know Washington.
What is different about this election is culture. Where is America going, culturally?
This is where Barack Obama and Sarah Palin come in.
Some say race is a factor against Obama, but I say it is the opposite: Obama has been propelled upwards by his skin color. The positive ‘racism’ (Black-Americans supporting him, White-Americans feeling guilty about the legacy of slavery) far outweighs the few remaining pockets of negative racism (traditional bigotry) that still exist in our country.
Whereas Black-Americans account for 12 percent of America, women number about 51 percent.
This is where America’s reaction to Sarah Palin gets interesting. It is not only sexism at play, but regionalism too. Keep in mind that America’s reaction could be vastly different from the media’s reaction, which tries to intervene in how America thinks and observes for itself.
For the last decade, American women have been trying to become either the fifth ‘Manhattanite’ cast member of ‘Sex and the City’ or a ‘Desperate Housewife’ on Wisteria Lane. The White male executives who created, packaged and marketed these female stereotypes have made plenty of money as women across America spent time and money trying to become ‘Carrie Bradshaw’. But somehow, these wanna-be’s never lived it up as glamorously.
Sarah Palin is all about God, Family, Country and Shot-Guns. She is a completely New American Woman. She was not constructed by a Public Relations agency in either New York City or Los Angeles. She is not a Hollywood creation. Sarah Palin is simply a product of American small-town wholesomeness: happy childhood, hard work, self-discipline and a bright, and almost chirpy, outlook on life.
Sarah is not the high-maintenance, drama-seeking, bulimia-suffering fragile caricature of a working woman as peddled by TV.
Her husband, Todd Palin, is not a neurotic metro-sexual obsessing over the price of organic arugula, or whining about his commitment phobias to his shrink. He is a man’s man, and frankly, a woman’s man: just your regular American guy—wholesome and uncomplicated.
Sarah and Todd are American ‘retro’, but it is retro made cool all over again. They are a brand of Americana that has been tested and true—genuine, confident and mature.
Something happened to the Obama brand on the way to the election. It is as if the fashion gods decided that “Didn’t you know? No one wears Obama after Labour Day.”
Once exotic and different, the Obama brand has been turned into something weird and creepy. “Obama’s Witnesses,” “Obama’s Blue-Shirts,” “The Obama Youth Fraternity League”…Plus, after the initial swooning over him, most people still think that there’s something “off” about Obama; as if he’s hollow, or hiding something.
Today, the Obama brand has become decidedly “uncool”. That’s why people tuned out from watching him debate McCain.
On the other hand, Americans are discovering that they are intrigued by Sarah Palin. The TV pundits may want to spin things their way, but the surest measure of who won the Vice-Presidential Debate is that, at the end, the vast majority of viewers walked away from their TV sets and said to themselves, “I’d like to see more of Sarah Palin—unfiltered and uncut.”
The Obama camp may be celebrating too early. There are still plenty of people out there that haven’t made up their mind, and Obama’s triumphalism may begin to sound like arrogance, and he’s already been accused of that.
This is indeed a culturally interesting time to be an American.

Palin holds her own? Given that what Palin is holding onto is a
few dozen brain cells, I guess that's the truth. Intrigued by
Sarah Palin? Her tits? Her ass? Her lies? Her BARBIE DOLL NESS?

The fact that she's a true Zionist and had a witch doctor praying
over her?

Critical thinking is dead in this country, and this country will be
"dead" soon as a result.

And Steve, I would guess that you need to go along to get along
for your luxurious lifestyle to continue, but elites like yourself
will suffer the same consequences as the rest of us when this
whole house of cards burns, because it's already fallen to the
ground.

Arianna Huffington got it right when she wrote that McCain's roll of the dice with Palin came up snake eyes Thursday night. And Charles Krauthammer has conceded the election to Obama, complete with some grudgingly positive comments about Obama.

Sarah's 15 minutes is over. She doesn't know it yet, but then there's a great deal she doesn't know, including the history of the earth, the difference between myth and reality, and the extent to which she is a prop chosen for her ability to charm the unsuspecting and arouse white males. Talk about a candidate using seduction as a campaign strategy - that she does quite well. Answer questions and give evidence that she knows things a vp should know - not so much.

Joe Biden : Warmonger. He should be asked how many Iraqi children would still be alive but for his presidential ambitions.

He should hang his head in shame. And so should you Steve for promoting him.

Read Ray McGovern's article about the craven corporate shill here: http://www.consortiumnews.com/2008/093008a.html

See the original cut from Palin Couric video - real palin couric interview and the SNL Palin Couric video - saturday night live palin couric video. I hadn't looked at both and thought SNL was too harsh but after seeing this, I think they were spot on. http://specialreport.com/saturday-night-live-palin-couric-video/

David said; "Charles Krauthammer has conceded the election to Obama, complete with some grudgingly positive comments about Obama."

If Charles Krauthammer has endorsed Obama, however grudgingly, you should be very, very afraid for your futures. Anyone that man endorses will bring no good to the United States of America or to its citizens.

You people need to find a way to shut down every newspaper printing press in the country if you're ever to escape the perfidy of their owners and those they hire to manipulate you.

Biden stomped her, but only for people who value serious content. She didn't even debate, refused to answer the questions asked, and just recited the current talking points.
I only hope Obama chomps McCain. He totally flubbed it the last time.
McCain's record is so juicy and delicious. He's more vulnerable than Arnold in a pink harness covered in chocolate honey goo.

"Biden stomped her, but only for people who value serious content." Posted by WillBFair

Here's some of your "serious content", WillBFair:

"Biden: Gwen, no one in the United States Senate has been a better friend to Israel than Joe Biden. I would have never, ever joined this ticket were I not absolutely sure Barack Obama shared my passion….Here's what the president said when we said no. He insisted on elections on the West Bank, when I said, and others said, and Barack Obama said, "Big mistake. Hamas will win. You'll legitimize them." What happened? Hamas won.

When we kicked -- along with France, we kicked Hezbollah out of Lebanon, I said and Barack said, "Move NATO forces in there. Fill the vacuum, because if you don't know -- if you don't, Hezbollah will control it."

Now what's happened? Hezbollah is a legitimate part of the government in the country immediately to the north of Israel. The fact of the matter is, the policy of this administration has been an abject failure.

And speaking of freedom being on the march, the only thing on the march is Iran. It's closer to a bomb. Its proxies now have a major stake in Lebanon, as well as in the Gaza Strip with Hamas.
We will change this policy with thoughtful, real, live diplomacy that understands that you must back Israel in letting them negotiate, support their negotiation, and stand with them, not insist on policies like this administration has."

This is the "serious content" you champion?!?

I hope something can save a small part of America's soul if you're indicative of the middle of America.