Ben,

Depends what "work" means, does it not? If "work" means try get out in front the certain to come 'soft on Iran' criticism on the home front, then they can be excused for thinking sanctions "work". (not that it will ultimately do them any good....Obama will be accused of "being soft" no matter what he does).

This is not an administration given to challenging Establishment narratives.

the politico article by the Leverett's is here

http://dyn.politico.com/printstory.cfm?uuid=26850879-18FE-70B2-A891EFA56644B47D

It is also important to understand the NPT treaty, the "Additional protocol¨, and the IAEA provisions regarding withdrawal from treaties etc.

The bottom line. Iran is not in violation of the NPT )to which it is signatory )and our allies to whom we support in nuclear weapons (Israel, India, and Pakistan) are not, despite the attempt to spin all.

Those interested should have no trouble finding evidence to support this. Even the AP has occasionally reported the Iranian compliance with NPT issue correctly.

The Politico link here produces a Movable Type password prompt.

The tech glitch aside, the Leveretts' idea of a grand bargain entails American concessions to Iran on every major point at issue. Their question to President Obama is, "Do you have what it takes to suck it up and surrender?"

Well, that would be a game-changer, all right. I don't dispute the Leveretts' right to be apologists for Mr. Ahmedinejad and his associates; were they Iranians taking the same view of Barack Obama they'd be making forced confessions on state television right now, but that's fine. I just think a grand bargain involves, you know, bargaining, not just toting up the concessions America can make as a price for getting a hostile foreign government to accept our apology. This site seems to disagree, though in fairness there are just two data points as yet -- Iran and Cuba -- justifying that impression. I just wonder what to expect if Hu Jintao should happen to give a speech saying this whole separate Taiwan thing has to come to a stop. Proposals for a game-changing grand bargain, no doubt.

i am sure there are going to be some posts talking about how the carrot and stick approach works... these same folks are going to give examples, lord knows what they will be... for every position there is an alternate one..

from my pov bullies like imposing sanctions.. in this sense it fits with the usa's (unconscious?) desire to be the bully of the globe... not imposing sanctions would be out of character for how the usa has been and continues to be perceived in my book..

As the Politco comments are out in left field,

the IAE docs are here:

http://www.iaea.org/Publications/Documents/Infcircs/Others/infcirc153.pdf

And Scott Ritter at the UK guardian here:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2009/sep/25/iran-secret-nuclear-plant-inspections

As the Politco comments are out in left field,

the IAE docs are here:

http://www.iaea.org/Publications/Documents/Infcircs/Others/infcirc153.pdf

And Scott Ritter at the UK guardian can be accessed via home URL.

(no interest in playing the multiple hot link game)

"Rather than waving hollow sticks, the Obama administration should seek a wide-ranging, game-changing agreement with the Iranians that goes beyond nuclear issues and addresses both the United States' and Iran's core security interests." (Ben Katcher)

To their credit, the Leveretts are willing to come clean on what exactly "Iran's core security interests are" but for some reason, Ben Katcher, in his numerous interesting posts on the subject always avoids spelling it out.

To be precise, when Ben Katcher talks about Iran's core security interests, what he really means is the security interests of the brutal regime that usurped the election and then beat, raped and killed its political foes who dared to object.

The Leveretts grand bargain would require the United States to completely forgo any action, covert or overt, military or peaceful, that fostered regime change. It would require the United States to look the Iranian reformers in the face and tell them we are indifferent to their plight and to their aspirations.

It would require us to tell gay Iranians that their suffering means nothing to us. It would require us to tell the Baha’is that we are indifferent to their continuing persecution. It would require us to tell Iranian women who object to wearing headscarves that their aspirations for basic human rights mean nothing to us and it would require us to tell Iranian students that their desires for a brighter future don't concern us as all.

The real life translation of securing “Iran's core security interests” is that the United States would cast its lot with the bigoted Mullahs not the progressive elements of Iranian society.

The Leveretts don't care. Steve Clemons called them "crack cocaine realists" because he knows that they are indifferent to everything except their jaundiced view of what's in American interests.

But at least Katcher should be honest; he should explain that he supports the grand bargain even though it means that we would be rejecting, essentially forever, the tens of thousands of Iranians who look to the United States as a model of what a better life can be like.

The Mullahs shot Neda once. The Leveretts (and apparently Ben Katcher) would like the United States to do it metaphorically, all over again.

Yuck!

WigWag,
You hit a nail right on half the head. The problem is the following-- if we decide that all the humanitarian stuff is worthwhile (and I'm not saying it's not), there's still the other half of the nailhead -- does any of that covert stuff, that pressure, those sanctions, the regime change stuff -- does any of it ever work? Without massive blowback? Without heavy duty local support?

The point of backing off isn't just that it's in US interests, it's also that it's reality.

I don't really know where to come down on this. Witnessing brutality and doing nothing is bad. Doing stuff and making it worse for the people who live there is bad. Sanctions are bad. Nuclear Iran I don't love. The Iranian regime is nasty. But it's there in part because of the last time the US got involved.

It's not about shooting Neda again. It's about not shooting Neda's grandnieces and grandnephews in 40 years. How do we avoid that?

wigwag wrote:

"The Leveretts grand bargain would require the United States to completely forgo any action, covert or overt, military or peaceful, that fostered regime change. It would require the United States to look the Iranian reformers in the face and tell them we are indifferent to their plight and to their aspirations.

It would require us to tell gay Iranians that their suffering means nothing to us. It would require us to tell the Baha’is that we are indifferent to their continuing persecution. It would require us to tell Iranian women who object to wearing headscarves that their aspirations for basic human rights mean nothing to us and it would require us to tell Iranian students that their desires for a brighter future don't concern us as all.'

I expected better from you. If this is not about "U.S. full spectrum dominance and resource wars" but human rights, how about focusing your gaze on Saudi Arabia or better yet, Africa???

Sounds like hypocrisy to me. And a double standard as to how the U.S. would react, would there be a similar asymmetric attempt at "regime change" here.

"It's not about shooting Neda again. It's about not shooting Neda's grandnieces and grandnephews in 40 years. How do we avoid that?"

Questions, I do agree with the Leveretts and Katcher about one thing; sanctions are unlikely to work.

And I disagree with most Israelis and American neocons about one thing; putative Iranian nuclear weapons are less of a threat to Israel, the Sunni Arab nations or to the West than many people believe (or pretend to believe).

In my opinion, there is only one way to protect Neda's grandnieces and grandnephews (to continue your metaphor); to assist progressive Iranians to overthrow and hopefully kill the conservative Mullahs who rule in Iran today.

Worries about blowback are overblown and those who worry that an attack on Iran by Israel or the United States might potentially lead to World War III (as I have read in the comment section of the Washington Note)are astoundingly dimwitted.

One action sure to take things in the wrong direction is forging a grand bargain with the reactionary elements who control Iranian society and selling out the progressive sectors in Iran who represent the only hope for Iran to ever be a prosperous, decent society.

Forging a grand bargain with the Mullahs wouldn't be like Nixon going to China, it would be far more akin to Nixon's "bargain" with Pinochet or Carter's "bargain" with the Khemer Rouge or Reagan's "bargain" with Roberto D'Aubuisson.

wigwag quote "To be precise, when Ben Katcher talks about Iran's core security interests, what he really means is the security interests of the brutal regime that usurped the election and then beat, raped and killed its political foes who dared to object."

substitute "israel" for "iran" and one gets a very similar picture wigwag, but interestingly i never hear you bellyache about this... as a matter of fact one could do this will all of wiggys post and notice how strong the parallels are however wigwag would like us to ignore these similarities with israel and iran....

i guess it boils down to wigwag being a better propagandist then nadine hoping we'll all forget white phosphorous on the prison inmates at gaza... it is still propaganda though wigwag which we can always count on you for...

"I expected better from you. If this is not about "U.S. full spectrum dominance and resource wars" but human rights, how about focusing your gaze on Saudi Arabia or better yet, Africa???"

I expect better from you, erichwwk. As you surely know, there is no grass-roots, progressive movement in Saudi Arabia like there is in Iran; there are simply no reformers of any consequence to assist.

If you think I'm a supporter of Saudi Arabia you must be mixing me up with Steve Clemons. He's the one who thinks greater engagement between Saudi Arabia and the United States is called for; he's the one who thinks Turki Al-Faisal is a great world leader and he's the one willing to ignore the human rights record of the Saudis; not me.

As for your sentence with the multiple question marks (isn't that a rather juvenile way to express emphasis?)this post wasn't about Africa, it was about Iran.

Yes, better human rights records on the part of various African nations would be good; what exactly does that have to do with whether the United States should forge a grand bargain with Iran?

Forging a grand bargain means selling out progressive Iranians in favor of the most reactionary elements of Iranian society at precisely the moment that those progressive Iranians aspire to have the freedoms that they associate with the United States.

Saudi Arabia and Africa have nothing to do with it. If you want the United States to side with the reactionary Mullahs, erichwwk, you should come out and say it like the Leveretts do.

Personally I think that strategy would not only be counterproductive (akin to toppling Mossadegh all over again); I also think it would be wrong.

"Based on conversations with senior Iranian officials under the reformist Khatami and conservative Ahmadinejad administrations, we are convinced that no Iranian government with any popular legitimacy will agree to abandon enrichment inside Iran"

Iran doesn't have to shoot off the weapons. Just consider what happens to the balance of power in the Gulf once it is believed that Iran has nukes - and that the US is in "hands off" mode.

"One action sure to take things in the wrong direction is forging a grand bargain with the reactionary elements who control Iranian society and selling out the progressive sectors in Iran who represent the only hope for Iran to ever be a prosperous, decent society."

What bargain have the mullahs ever kept? Governments who treat their own people this way don't hesitate to lie to foreigners. But I'm afraid you're swimming against the tide, Wigwag.

Nobody on today's left wants to help the progressive elements of Iranian society or cut off those massive aid checks to Hizbullah and Hamas because that would take - ah, what's the word - confrontation with dictators. So very Bushian, how yucky. The left no longer does that. Today's left only beats up on small democratic allies, which is quite safe.

Obama may want to pause to stick his finger in the wind; giving in to the mullahs is unpopular even with Democrats. From a new Pew poll:

The public approves of direct negotiations with Iran over its nuclear program, although most Americans are not hopeful the talks will succeed. And a strong majority – 61% – says that it is more important to prevent Iran from developing nuclear weapons, even if it means taking military action. Far fewer (24%) say it is more important to avoid a military conflict with Iran, if it means that the country may develop nuclear weapons.

There is broad willingness across the political spectrum to use military force to prevent Iran from going nuclear. Seven-in-ten Republicans (71%) and two-thirds of independents (66%) say it is more important to prevent Iran from developing nuclear weapons even if it means taking military action. Fewer Democrats (51%) express this view; still, only about three-in-ten Democrats (31%) say it is more important to avoid a military conflict with Iran, if it means Tehran may develop nuclear weapons.

The latest national survey by the Pew Research Center for the People & the Press, conducted Sept. 30-Oct. 4 among 1,500 adults reached on cell phones and landlines, finds substantial public support for non-military strategies aimed at persuading Iran from going ahead with its nuclear program. Yet there is considerable skepticism that these efforts – tougher international sanctions as well as direct talks with Iran – would succeed in getting Iran to drop its nuclear program.

More than six-in-ten Americans (63%) approve of the United States negotiating directly with Iran over the issue of its nuclear program while 28% oppose such talks. In September 2006, 54% said they would favor such negotiations while 32% were opposed. At the time, the Bush administration opposed direct negotiations with Iran.

Yet while the public supports nuclear talks with Iran, a clear majority (64%) says they will not work in getting Iran to give up its nuclear program, compared with just 22% who say they will work.

The public also overwhelmingly approves of tougher economic sanctions against Iran; fully 78% approve while just 12% disapprove. But again, most Americans (56%) say that tougher economic sanctions would not work in getting Iran to drop its nuclear program.

The survey finds that slightly more than half of Americans (51%) say they have a great deal (17%) or a fair amount (34%) of confidence in President Obama to do the right thing in dealing with Iran; 44% say they have not too much confidence (24%) or no confidence at all (20%) in Obama on this issue.

Seven-in-ten Democrats (71%) have confidence in Obama on Iran while 19% express little or no confidence in the president. Just 30% of Republicans say they have a great deal or fair amount of confidence in Obama to do the right thing in dealing with Iran while 66% are not too confident or not at all confident. Independents are evenly split, with 49% expressing at least a fair amount of confidence in Obama on Iran and 48% expressing little or no confidence.
http://people-press.org/report/550/

wigwag writes:

"Worries about blowback are overblown and those who worry that an attack on Iran by Israel or the United States might potentially lead to World War III (as I have read in the comment section of the Washington Note)are astoundingly dimwitted."

If "blowback" scenarios are indeed "astoundingly dimwitted", why not just give the supporting evidence and let the readers draw their own conclusion?

To me WWII was no different than what led us into
the Vietnam, Gulf War I, Gulf War II, and AfPak - resource wars disguised as "human rights". Is it indeed possible to have a major war, without the ability to "demonize" an enemy?

As Winston Churchill himself wrote in his memoirs:

One day President Roosevelt told me that he was asking publicly for suggestions about what the war should be called. I said at once "The Unnecessary War." There was never a war more easy to stop than that which has just wrecked what was left of the world from the previous struggle.

but yet it gets sold in America as the "good war".

You know Nadine, it is rather remarkable that so many people who fancy themselves on the progressive end of the political spectrum are willing to align themselves with the most reactionary elements in the Muslim World.

Whether it's the Basij militias in Iran beating women for exposing too much hair, the Taliban in Afghanistan outlawing music or Hamas in Gaza decapitating their Fatah opponents, it seems that many who delude themselves into thinking they're leftists just can't get enough of Islamic intolerence.

It's looking more and more like neoconservates like yourself (that's how you would describe yourself, isn't it?) and old fashioned liberals like me are the only ones left who think that things like tolerence, free expression and religious liberty actually matter.

As for the Leveretts; I don't blame them. At least they're honest. They don't consider themselves progressives; in fact my guess is that they are Republicans. And they come right out and admit that when it comes to foreign policy they don't care about human rights.

If only the people who commented here were equally honest.

Wigwag writes:

If you want the United States to side with the reactionary Mullahs, erichwwk, you should come out and say it like the Leveretts do.

I don't see the mullahs (they are not monolithic), or Ahmadinejad in the same light as you apparently do. After two different Norman Schwarzkopfs (father and son) deceived the American public to engage in regime change, the mullahs might have a tendency to lump legitimate internal desire for freedom with that initiated by a dominant foreign military power in a way they might not otherwise.

But then on the important issue [that of interfering in internal affairs via official government involvement, rather than through NGO's]

you write:

" Personally I think that strategy would not only be counterproductive (akin to toppling Mossadegh all over again); I also think it would be wrong."

we seem to be on the same page (if a interpret what you mean by "that straegy" correctly, although I am uncertain as to how.

I suspect the desire to avoid nuclear weapons proliferation is almost unanimous among states, I see it is the US unwillingness to give up "full spectrum dominance" that is most responsible for keeping us from getting there. Just check out the annual UN GA votes on the militarization of space.

wigwag quote "If only the people who commented here were equally honest." indeed wigwag.. good example of the pot calling the kettle black here...

from the thread one down, but definitely worth posting here as well...

>>>>Posted by JohnH, Oct 06 2009, 1:40PM - Link

Wigwag--your heart bleeds when it comes to Iranian and Afghan women. But when it comes to Palestinian women and children, you condemn the Goldstone Report which exposes Israeli war crimes, particularly against women and children. So which is it? Do you support the rights of women and children? Or do you simply back Israel, right or wrong?

My position backs the rights of women and children more than yours. War is hell, causing immense suffering, particularly among women and children. And so I oppose senseless wars, whether they be against Iraqis, Iranians, Afghans, or Palestinians. You back war, despite its impact on women and children. It's as if you believe in destroying a village to save it. How many more wars and occupations do you want to put helpless women and children through?

Yes, I read Pat Buchanan's book on World War II, erichwwk; he provided the same quote from Churchill that you did; and like you, he questioned whether the West in general and Churchill in particular, blundered into World War II. But even Buchanan at his most deluded didn't suggest what you did; that World War II was a "resource war."

By the way, I never said blowback scenerios are astoundingly dimwitted; I said that they're "overblown." What I said is incredibly dimwitted is the suggestion that an American or Israeli attack on Iran would lead to World War III.

Exactly which nations would ally themselves with Iran in the event it was attacked? The Southern half of Lebanon? Gaza? Venezuela?

The idea that an attack on Iran would ever lead to a third world war is precisely what I said it was; "dimwitted."

attacking iran would be as illegal as the attack on iraq.

the entirety of both episodes are staged.
iran has an unalienable right to enrich uranium for peaceful
purposes, and is a signatory of the npt.

http://original.antiwar.com/prather/2009/10/02/obama-the-
great/

"Last week, for the very first time, an American president chaired
a meeting of the United Nations Security Council. Obama the
Maybe-Not-Naïve challenged other Council members – including
the heads of state of Russia, China, Great Britain and France – to
"overcome cynicism" about the possibility of a world without
nuclear weapons.

And, a few days later, the Security Council adopted Obama’s
Resolution 1887, which begins by;

"Resolving to seek a safer world for all and to create the
conditions for a world without nuclear weapons, in accordance
with the goals of the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear
Weapons (NPT), in a way that promotes international stability,
and based on the principle of undiminished security for all,

"Underlining that the NPT remains the cornerstone of the nuclear
non-proliferation regime and the essential foundation for the
pursuit of nuclear disarmament and for the peaceful uses of
nuclear energy,

"Reaffirming its firm commitment to the NPT and its conviction
that the international nuclear non-proliferation regime should
be maintained and strengthened to ensure its effective
implementation, and recalling in this regard the outcomes of
past NPT Review Conferences, including the 1995 and 2000 final
documents,

"Calls upon all States that are not Parties to the NPT to accede to
the Treaty as non-nuclear-weapon States so as to achieve its
universality at an early date, and pending their accession to the
Treaty, to adhere to its terms;

"Recalls the statements by each of the five nuclear-weapon
States, noted by resolution 984 (1995), in which they give
security assurances against the use of nuclear weapons to non-
nuclear-weapon State Parties to the NPT, and affirms that such
security assurances strengthen the nuclear non-proliferation
regime."

Wow!

Among other things, the Americans-Brits-French-Russians-
Chinese reassured NPT-compliant non-nuclear-weapons states
they wouldn’t nuke them. Hence, you might suppose every
nation-state – especially nuke-armed India, Pakistan and Israel –
would urgently want to become a NPT-compliant non-nuclear-
weapons state. Or remain one.

So, now you know why Bonkers Bolton’s successors and acolytes
in the Obama-Biden administration had attempted to get Iran
singled out by name in UNSCR 1887 as an example of a State
not in compliance with its NPT "obligations," and hence,
ineligible to enjoy the benefits of the peaceful use of atomic
energy guaranteed them by the NPT. And, presumably, no
longer immune from being nuked by fellow NPT-signatories.

But, recall that the principal obligation of a non-nuclear-
weapons state NPT-signatory is to not "manufacture or
otherwise acquire nuclear weapons." And a non-nuclear-
weapons state is also required to conclude a Safeguards
Agreement with the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA),
covering certain NPT-proscribed "nuclear materials" and all
activities involving their chemical or physical transformation,
"with a view to preventing diversion of nuclear energy from
peaceful uses to nuclear weapons."

samuel - that might all be true but ''the bully'' is going to have none of it.... the local bullies here at twn are no different when it comes to wanting war on iran 24/7, while maintaining a cheap facade of being concerned about the freedoms or welfare of women in iran for example... and we have steve to thank for an endless stream of posts during the time of the iran elections, something i don't remember seeing to the same degree during the seige of gaza last january... media blackout only happens some of the time with certain world events...

"To be precise, when Ben Katcher talks about Iran's core security interests, what he really means is the security interests of the brutal regime that usurped the election and then beat, raped and killed its political foes who dared to object"

How is Israel treating peaceful protestors these days, WigBag?

"It's looking more and more like neoconservates like yourself (that's how you would describe yourself, isn't it?) and old fashioned liberals like me are the only ones left who think that things like tolerence, free expression and religious liberty actually matter"

Yeah, oh yeah. Thats EXACTLY how I would describe you and Nadine, as champions for "tolerence, free expression and religious liberty".

You've finally lost your ever luvin' Islamophobic mind, Wiggie. Either that, or you're a hopeless liar.

"How is Israel treating peaceful protestors these days, WigBag?"

"Ask me on a thread about Israel douche bag and I will be happy to tell you.

In the meantime why don't you go back to licking Sibel's ass?

That is if Nina and your Jewish mother-in-law don't mind.

yeah dont you know israel has nothing to do with wanting the
u.s to send their soldier into iran to die for their colonialist
project in the middle east.

the only way to deal with the bullies is to give them a steady diet
of facts...opinions they can deal with since they are full of them.

they are tireless liars and twisters of arguments...they are legal
wordsmiths and have turned the world upside down with their
twisted logic.

By GARETH PORTER

"Excerpts of the internal draft report by the staff of the
International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) published online last
week show that the report's claims about Iranian work on a
nuclear weapon is based almost entirely on intelligence
documents which have provoked a serious conflict within the
agency.

Contrary to sensational stories by the Associated Press and The
New York Times, the excerpts on the website of the Institute for
Science and International Security (ISIS) reveal that the IAEA's
Safeguards Department, which wrote the report, only has
suspicions – not real evidence - that Iran has been working on
nuclear weapons in recent years.

The newly published excerpts make it clear, moreover, that the
so-called "Alleged Studies" documents brought to the attention
of the agency by the United States five years ago are central to
its assertion that Iran had such a programme in 2002-03.

Whether those documents are genuine or were fabricated has
been the subject of a fierce struggle behind the scenes for many
months between two departments of the IAEA.

Some IAEA officials began calling for a clear statement by the
agency that it could not affirm the documents' authenticity after
the agency obtained hard evidence in early 2008 that a key
document in the collection had been fraudulently altered, as
previously reported by this writer. As journalist Mark Hibbs
reported last week in Nucleonics Week, opposition to relying on
the intelligence documents has come not only from outgoing
Director General Mohamed ElBaradei but from the Department of
External Relations and Policy Coordination.

http://counterpunch.com/porter10062009.html

"The U.S. will keep on pursuing Middle East peace. Obama will
keep getting intense pressure from the hawks at home to
capitulate to every Israeli demand. He will certainly look for
maneuvering room. And the rising influence of the Jewish peace
lobby will give him more room than his predecessors had. But
even a peace movement strong enough to offset the "pro-Israel"
right might not offer room enough as long as the overriding aim
of U.S. Middle Eastern policy is to make Iran say uncle; that is, to
make its leaders accept the image of a humbled, overawed loser.

If the administration sticks to that approach, no move to cut
through the Gordian Knot of Israeli-Palestinian relations will
truly work, not with Obama and his team trapped behind a wall
of containment. President Obama and his advisors will, instead,
live in terror of the image of Iran that the U.S. has had such a
hand in creating. Like Eisenhower and all the Cold War
presidents after him and all their advisors, they will remain
endlessly plagued by problems that defy solution.

The recent Iranian concessions offer the president the beginning
of a way out, a chance to make good on his own message to the
United Nations: "The future does not belong to fear... All of us
must decide whether we are serious about peace."

Now he and his administration, too, must decide if they are
serious. They would do well to modify the old mantra of Bill
Clinton's 1992 campaign for president and put it everywhere: It's
the Iranians, stupid. If they can rid themselves of their Cold War-
style Iranian obsession, another path is possible. If they make
the two-state solution an end in itself rather than just another
means of containment, if they transcend the fear that is the
brick and mortar of the wall of containment, if they tear down
that wall and exorcise the ghost of the Cold War, then they just
might guide the Israelis and Palestinians to the peace that both
sides so badly need.

Ira Chernus is Professor of Religious Studies at the University of
Colorado at Boulder and author of Apocalypse Management:
Eisenhower and the Discourse of National Insecurity. Read more
of his writing on Israel, Palestine, and American Jews on his
blog."

http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/175123/
ira_chernus_cold_war_s_ghost_blocks_mideast_peace

"Ask me on a thread about Israel douche bag and I will be happy to tell you"

Don't like it when people point out your highly selective and racist concern for human rights, do you?

Silly me, I forgot, you and Nazine don't consider Palestinians "human".

And since when has Steve ever posted a thread on an "Israel douche bag"? How do they differ? Are they kosher or something? And how much of my tax money was spent developing them and handing them out to needy Israeli princesses???

Wrong, POA, it's your intellect and emotional maturity that I consider subhuman.

Steve never posts threads on the Israel-Palestine conflict does he? You can read can't you?

You really are contemptibly stupid and bigoted aren't you POA?

Does Nina like you POA, or does she just feel sorry for you like one might for a mangy, flea infested dog?

Keep it coming, POA, I'm just in the mood to whip your ass right about now.

In fact, hearing from you is the best thing that's happened to me all day.

Wasn't there a commentator here once who used to call you tiny? Was he referring to your brain or something else?

Whatever happened to him?

Samuel, it is quite obvious that the Obama Administration will do whatever the Israelis tell them to do in regards to Iran. The recent display of Obama political cowardice in the face of inter-party policy betrayal by the likes of Reid and Hoyer tell us all we need to know.

Actually you zionist bitch, you are incapable of "kicking" anyone's ass. Why don't you shag your fat ass over to Israel and join the IDF, instead of begging buckets of American blood to do Israel's nazi-like exterminations?

Actually you Israel hating, women hating fuck, why don't you shag your ass over to Mexico and apologize for living on land you stole from them.

Seen any Mexicans traveling in pick-trucks on dirt roads recently, POA? We all know how you cower in fear every time you see one of those big bad Mexicans whom you consider subhuman.

By the way, how often do you call Nina a bitch or a witch?

Nazi-like exterminations, POA? That's a pretty big term coming from someone like you; if there's anyone who comments regularly on this site who is more Nazi-like than you, I'd like to know who it is.

Anyway, you never answered my question. When you're called "Tiny" is it a reference to your IQ, your emotional maturity or something else?

"And how much of my tax money was spent developing them..."

I did have another question I wanted to ask you POA.

Do you actually pay taxes or are all or most of your billings paid in cash so you can avoid paying taxes?

You wouldn't be a tax cheat would you, POA?

I'm sure the IRS would love to know.

Wig Wag typed: "You know Nadine, it is rather remarkable that so many people who fancy themselves on the progressive end of the political spectrum are willing to align themselves with the most reactionary elements in the Muslim World."

Gee, That's original. I've never read that in a blog post submitted by a demonstrated rabid, racist Zionist before.

No. Not. Never.

When are you BOOBS gonna get it?!?

We're NOT aligning ourselves with anyone! What we're doing is decrying the deliberate manipulation of American and other Western Nation's foreign policy and public opinion to further the Evil Agenda of Zionist Israel and their traitorous enablers right here!

Btw, WigWag, I have to shamefacedly admit its PURE JOY watching you finally, totally lose what was left of your mind though it's not something I'm proud to admit.

POA does appear to have finally found the right combination of buttons-pushed that permits us all to peer into the shallow, murky, pungent recesses of your scorched and blackened mind where it ain't pretty to look.

But hey. I slow down and stare at traffic accidents just like everyone else does.

"But hey. I slow down and stare at traffic accidents just like everyone else does."

All you have to do is look in the mirror, Arthur; you'll see an accident every time you do.

Or maybe I'm just mixing an accident up with an abortion.

Wig, there is every reason to live in TERROR of Mexican drivers.
More than box-cutting knife carrying Arabs.

I will take bets many more Americans have been killed by illegal
immigrants following Mexican non-road rules than were killed
on 9/11.

Take a drive on I-10 right around Riverside and see if you get
out with your scalp intact. It's like a NASCAR race for clunkers.

Although East coast "liberal" neo-interventionists are actually
more dangerous than Mexican drivers.

Put your own grandkids on the line Wig, when you want to save
those Iranian women from the horrors of having to wear a head
scarf. Which Orthodox Jewish women in the settlements have to
do as well, or wear a WIG. Who are you trying to fool?

Have you ever traveled Wig, beyond the Dalmatian Coast in your
mind? I wouldn't want Italian drivers here either. Or Thai
drivers.

Or Thai people, because the women are way too beautiful and
would drive the goyim to assimilate/ intermarry and we'd all be
eating galanga and prik nam pha instead of a bagel with a
shmear.

Arizona has reservations, which are tribal states, with their own
governments and laws. Native Americans are free to come and
go and do whatever they want to do. They get special
scholarships, health care and tribal benefits. Plus those damn
casinos, some of which are funding ISRAELI SETTLEMENTS.

Native Americans are not held in concentration camps with food
and even water withheld from them like the Palestinians.

By NO means am I excusing what was done to Native Americans.
As I have said over and over, I grew-up with them, Navajos,
Apaches, Papagos ( Tohono O'odham), Hopis, Pimas, and respect
them immensely.

All I'm saying is that there is no way the current situation with
the Palestinians and the Israelis can be compared to the current
situation with the Native Americans. And I emphasize the world
"current."

And I think POA has been extremely fair in separating Israel's
actions from what he thinks are the actions and thoughts of all
Jews.

You're one of the posters here who are conflating them. If you
care about the Jews Wig, get them out of the Middle East or
lobby Israel to become one state and live in peace with her
neighbors. This situation is untenable.

As to who will be pissed off if UsRael attacks Iran? Pretty much
the entire world but especially Russia and China, the latter of
which holds a huge portion of our treasury bonds and has
massive investments in Iran's oil fields and the former of which
has techs in the nuclear plants.

I don't know why you bother Wig, but I will say, AGAIN, if Israel
is so important to you emigrate there and take your kids and
grandkids, and fight your own damn wars with your own damn
money. That's "dinero" in Mexican. I know that because I pay
my cleaning lady in pesos.

Okay outraged American; I got it. Now we can add Mexicans and Native Americans to the long list of people you hate. You've already shared with us your views of Indians, Australians, Canadians and Israelis. And of course you've been pretty plain about the way you feel about Americans.

You haven't told us yet about the racial or ethnic traits of the Marshall Islanders or the South Moluccans that you hate, OA; but I'm sure that it won't be long before you do.

By the way, OA, come clean; have you been diagnosed as bipolar?

A simple yes or no will do.

Here you go, folks, Wig-wag unmasked......

"Actually you Israel hating, women hating fuck, why don't you shag your ass over to Mexico and apologize for living on land you stole from them"

"Seen any Mexicans traveling in pick-trucks on dirt roads recently, POA? We all know how you cower in fear every time you see one of those big bad Mexicans whom you consider subhuman"

"By the way, how often do you call Nina a bitch or a witch?"

"Nazi-like exterminations, POA? That's a pretty big term coming from someone like you; if there's anyone who comments regularly on this site who is more Nazi-like than you, I'd like to know who it is"

"Anyway, you never answered my question. When you're called "Tiny" is it a reference to your IQ, your emotional maturity or something else?"

When you cut through the constant charade of "reasonable" and "civil" defense of all things Israel, underneath you just find some hateful obnoxious petty little weasel that dispenses human rights sympathies purely along racial lines. And when called on it, all she can come up with is this asinine bit about penis size, and accusations of racism because of my opposition to illegal immigration.

You ever seen this pig WigWag decry pregnant women being detained at checkpoints, having babies in cabs? You ever seen her decry Israel dumping white phosphorous on women and children??? But gee, she sure has a problem with how Israel's enemies treat women and children, doesn't she? How sincere do you think THAT bit of propaganda is?

So have at it, WigWag. Give it your best shot. Imply stupid threats about the IRS. (I pay my taxes, so these assholes in Washington can send them to these racist monsters steering Israel towards global anti-semitism) Make your remarkably shallow and petty little insinuations about penis size. Its about time you showed this blog what you're REALLY made out of.

Actually WigWag, I've got the smallest penis on the planet earth. Its about the size of a shelled peanut, (but only when aroused).

There. Feel better now?

Boy, you sure pulled my covers, didn't you?

Calling me remarkably shallow, POA; that's rich. On thread after thread you insult and demean the people who post here and comment here. On thread after thread, you repeat yourself ad nauseum about Sibel (or is it Sybil)and you never have anything original to say.

You've described yourself perfectly, POA, when you mention a "hateful obnoxious petty little weasel that dispenses human rights sympathies purely along racial lines."

Your verbal intimidation appears ubiquitously at the Washington Note and when someone writes a few comments throwing it back in your face, you squirm and wiggle like the slimy inhuman character you are.

If ever a person presented themselves as having no redeeming value, POA, it's you. You're a waste of protoplasm and your attempts to make the Washington Note a hostile environment for me and others won't work.

It's obvious what you are, POA.

You're a pig.

I have a sneaking suspicion, Nina thinks so too.

ps: When you say, "Actually WigWag, I've got the smallest penis on the planet earth. Its about the size of a shelled peanut, (but only when aroused)," are you sure you're not mistaking your penis size with your IQ?

Oh, and POA, are you really being truthful when you say,

"I pay my taxes..."

Do you really declare all the income on those cash jobs you take?

No, not bi-polar, but working in Hollywood would change
anyone's brain chemistry + teach them Yiddish. Which I bet I
speak better than you do even when I'm breast-feeding and
shooting-up at the same time.

Working in the industry I did learn how to play your game Wig,
and Netanyahus'. It's a very dangerous one, because your rabid
Zionism is endangering the lives of your own tribal members.

Although I do think what Zionists will hate the most are Indians,
because Indians are just as unscrupulous as they are, although
tremendously disorganized.

And again I'm separating Zionists from all Jews, and I'm from
India myself. I was a chai-wallah before I got my degree, after
which I became a prostitute, like most Anglo-Indians.

And Wig thinks that this is going to be India's century, which I
have to chortle heartily at. Ever seen a Bollywood movie? In the
middle of an intense war scene, half-naked dancers will
suddenly appear and start screeching a "song" in that really
annoying Hindi Filmi way.

That's India in a coriander shell and that's why I don't fear India
taking over the world.

India might destroy the world though -- Vishnu, where art
though, Vishnu? Probably hiding in the Hindu Kush with the
dead Caveman.

I know you have eye problems Wig, but I made it very clear that I
respected my Native American classmates -- they were my best
friends growing-up in Arizona. I used to score Bubble Yum off
of them and the Mormons.

I don't hate Mexicans, they take care of my Mom so that we
don't have to. But unfettered immigration without fixing the
underlying problem benefits no one except for unscrupulous
corporations, Which is a contradiction in terms because, of
course, all corporations are unfailingly scrupulous.

And we paid $90,000 in taxes last year and resent that because
it went to WAR. Again National Priorities Project. or

"....the Obama administration should seek a wide-ranging, game-changing agreement with the Iranians that goes beyond nuclear issues and addresses both the United States' and Iran's core security interests."

What pray-tell would that look like? What ARE the US security interests? No nukes and no terrorism support I would assume.

"I have a sneaking suspicion, Nina thinks so too"

Well, when I showed her your post, she said, calmly, (with a loving hand on my shoulder), "Damn. What a sad old bitch".

I didn't get around to asking her what she thinks of me, though. Didn't need to.

She's still muttering, in the kitchen.

Quote, "You know ---, you really gotta feel sorry for someone like that bitch".

Not me. I don't pity you in the least. In fact, I celebrate people like you. Karma is a wonderful thing.

And I don't take cash jobs, Wiggie. I'm an employee of a local contractor, high end, with a fantastic rep. I don't need to take cash jobs, nor do I have the time to take cash jobs. But hey, if it floats your boat, keep nattering. Its rare this blog community gets a glimpse of whats underneath WigWag's pretty scales.

I'm real, Wiggie. Frosts your ass, don't it? See, I can banter obnoxious with you all night long. Hey, I'm ALWAYS obnoxious here. Its what I do. It entertains me. I can engage in one of these pissing matches with you, and not change one fuckin' thing about how I post.

But you???? You have to shed the facade, doncha? That smooth talking Israel firster hasbara horseshit goes right by the wayside. Pfffft. And what do we find under it? Well, Nina pretty well nailed it, didn't she?.

Sanctions for what?

Wondering if Steve will be attending this conference on Thursday?

Some of the people speaking are on the top 10 most wanted for starting a war based on a "pack of lies" list. Douglas Feith should be in prison for the false intellligence that came out of the Office of Special Plans.

Someone need to do a citizens arrest at this conference. Mev Wurmser at the Hudson Institute sure stirs up the lies in her articles about Iran.

Anyone attending this panel? Citizens arrest

U.S.-Israeli Relations at a Crossroads?
Challenges to the Special Relationship
http://www.hudson.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=hudson_upcoming_events&id=717

WigWag typed: "Calling me remarkably shallow, POA; that's rich."

I'd like to poke a stick in your side, wiggy - and ask you to remember a few posts back when I described you as having "shallow, murky, pungent recesses (in) your scorched and blackened mind where it ain't pretty to look."

Oh!

I forgot! You're ignoring me!

LMAO!

So if you’re not bipolar, OA, how do you explain the rambling, bizarre comments; the constant non sequiturs and the strange references to ethnic traits that your comments constantly allude to?

What explains your "joke" about being in bed with Steve Clemons and all the other extraordinarily strange remarks that you seem to think are amusing?

And what accounts for all of your name dropping and bragging about the extraordinary things you claim to have done in your life? You know what I mean, OA; the comments where you inform everyone how you "do" while all anyone else does is "post."

Why would you think that any rational Washington Note reader would ever want your e-mail address to correspond or meet you in person?

I wonder about you as a mother, OA. Is your only aspiration for your daughter (if you have one) is that she go to "cosmetology school." Are you looking forward to people demeaning your daughter the way you demeaned that intern a week or so ago?

Do yourself a favor, OA, if you’ve never been diagnosed, have yourself checked out. You’re simply not playing with a full deck.

By the way, as long as you've told us how much you pay in taxes (and it is alot) maybe you can help POA out.

You know how so many people in his business operate; when they quote you a price they give you the "cash" price and the price you have to pay if you pay by check.

Then they spend all their time complaining about how the taxes they cheat on are spent by the government.

Maybe that husband of yours (you know the one I mean; the Jew who you told us spends all his time trying to make money) and POA can share some tax tips. Why don't you ask Steve to send your e-mail address to POA?

"I can engage in one of these pissing matches with you, and not change one fuckin' thing about how I post."

That's right, POA you hit it right on the head; that's how you post. On occassion I have a little fun on a thread exposing you for the sick fuck you are; but for you it's the same on thread after thread after thread.

And as for Nina, sounds to me like she's similar to one of those Afghani women who put up with their sick, sexist husbands because they have little choice. Either Nina is demented for having anything to do with you or she just feels bad about the sorry excuse for a man that you are.

You've never asked Nina to wear a chador have you POA?

I would type "right-on" about Feith and a citizens' arrest, except
it would be too 70s and remind us all of a time we held our
government accountable to a tiny extent.

I do think that Obama's trying to get the Zionists to STFU, but
he's got the whole US Congress not behind him, except for very
obvious neo-Nazis like Paul, Katptur, Lee and Abercrombie.

I think in my tri-polar way that we should just give up, because
these thugs in the US Knesset are going to attack Iran and kill
tens of millions.

But why should we care? We''ll only be reduced to eating each
other in order to survive.

And BTW that word "thug" comes out of India, like me, and a sect
of Kali, the thugges who used to rob and often kill travelers.
Kali is the Hindu goddess of destruction, who is also considered
the mad mother of the universe, and who Calcutta, or whatever
they call it now is named after supposedly.

And Wig seriously thinks that India will rule the world.
Namaste- ji Wig. Emigrate to Israel before you do any more
damage to my diaphram by making me laugh even harder.

Wig, how do I explain my inane randomness? I traveled around
the world with a backpack for three years, a tall blonde ( but yet
Anglo-Indian) woman who was constantly under attack.

Working in the entertainment industry for 15 years. Working for
a paper you could have found on any street corner.

Volunteering in independent news for the last five years as a TV
and radio news producer.

Volunteering for a humanitarian aid group that helped Iraqi and
Afghan refugees for two years. Volunteering with lepers and the
dying and Aids patients.

Taking care of kids and animals who I Iove.

The short answer would be life experience I guess, and realizing
that you cannot do anything to change anything.

easy e has met me Wig, so don't get your Wig in a twist about
that. He's also met my sardonic, Canadian, half-Jewish,
drunken, husband, who was the VP of a movie studio.

And Steve has emailed me that he LOL (laughs out loud) about
some of my posts. Not that Steve is endorsing my posts, he just
sometimes needs relief, which I would suggest we all do.

On occassion I have a little fun on a thread exposing you for the sick fuck you are; but for you it's the same on thread after thread after thread"

Gee, I'd suggest you reread the thread, then ask yourself who exactly was "exposed".

BTW, there is something decidedly masculine about your manner of insult. You haven't been lying to us about your gender, have you?

Yeah, OA, you're quite the humanitarian; the kids and animals in the world who you love are sure lucky that you were born. You're a veritable Michael Jackson!

And I don't doubt for a second that your comments on his blog are the one's Steve's most proud of.

As for your diaphragm (note spelling), I suggest you use one before any other children are subject to your insanity and inanity.

By the way, OA, sorry for calling your husband Jewish (knowing the way you feel about Jews and all, which I assume is similar to your feelings about Australians, Indians and Canadians).

I didn't realize that your husband was only half Jewish and a drunk.

funny. i haven't read this blog or these comments since last year.
all i had to do was read the last few to see that nothing has
changed! all is well in the world. poa is a tool.

"BTW, there is something decidedly masculine about your manner of insult."

I'll take that as a compliment, POA.

But I'm still waiting to hear if you ask Nina to wear a chador. By the way, is she as afraid of Mexicans as you are?

You never, ever took a cash job, POA? Really?

Varanassi, I think if you look at some of the other threads, you will see some smart posts and reasonably intelligent commentary.

But you're correct; POA is still doing everything he can to ruin the Washington Note.

Hey Benares/ Varnasasi, how the Ganges are you? Obviously on
a Pacific time zone with your Muslim hatred still intact.

Wig, I worked for Michael Jackson's publicist, Lee Solters -- a
Yid from the hood --a good portion of my Yiddish comes from
listening to Lee screaming and or throwing things. He's the one
who taught me about Goebbel's and how to lie the big lie.

But, again, easy e has met me, in the flesh, literally, and I can
prove every single word I've typed here. Kervick and Norheim
have my email address -- they can expose me if they really feel
like I'm a fraud, but they probably have shriveled-up peni like
POA does, according to Wig Wag. I've never seen POA's tool and
don't really want to unless he pays me in cash.

The kids have turned out well. One, if he isn't drafted to die in
Iran, is going to Georgetown. He's one of the half-Jews.

You need to emigrate to Yisrael Wig, as do most members of the
US Knesset. We cannot afford your type any longer, not that we
ever could.

Why do you think you have the right to sit here in the US,
enjoying all the benefits, while sending young kids from
Oklahoma or Native Americans to DIE FOR ISRAEL?

I am physically from India, a land my Indian ancestors have lived
in for millennia, and my British / Portuguese ancestors have
lived in for centuries, but am I working as a propagandist for
India like you are for Israel? NO.

GO TO ISRAEL WIG. I'll take bets that you're an Ashkenazi Jew.
Put your shofar where your typing fingers are and get the hell
out of here.

You hate the goyim who are onto you , but it seems that you're
perfectly willing to risk our kids' lives for Eretz Israel, while lying
on a beach chair in Miami.

"Kervick and Norheim have my email address"

Nope, Outraged. I didn`t ask for your email adress,
nor did anybody send it to me.

Steve,

I`m just curious: are the exchanges above between WigWag, POA, Outraged and Arthur better or worse
than the typical debates within the DC set that you mentioned in another thread?

"I have a number of good friends who vastly prefer reading the banter following the blog posts
rather than my posts themselves."

Would you think that your friends may read more of your posts, if you call those you disagree with
in the foreign policy crowd petty little weasels; slimy inhuman characters; pigs; traffic accidents;
abortions; mangy, flea infested dogs; a waste of protoplasm? Or if you once in a while discussed the
size of their penises?

juan cole has this up on his site about iran...
Iran and Nuclear Latency

"When you tool around the blogosphere and the news sites, the
discourse about Iran's nuclear program is maddeningly
contradictory. But I think a single hypothesis can account for all
the known facts. These are:

http://www.juancole.com/

1. Iran is making a drive to close the fuel cycle and to be capable
of independently enriching uranium to at least the 5 percent or
so needed for energy reactors and also to the 20 percent needed
for its medical reactor.

2. Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei gave a fatwa in 2005 that no
Islamic state may possess or use atomic weapons because they
willy nilly kill masses of innocent civilians when used, which is
contrary to the Islamic law of war (which forbids killing innocent
non-combatants).

3. Iranian officials have repeatedly denied that they are working
on a nuclear bomb or that they aspire to have one.

4. US intelligence agencies are convinced that Iran has done no
weapons-related experiments since 2003, and that it currently
has no nuclear weapons program.

5. Israel forcefully maintains that Iran's nuclear program is for
weapons and has repeatedly threatened to bomb the Natanz
enrichment facilities.

6. Iran recently announced a new nuclear enrichment facility
near Qom.

Those who insist that Iran is trying to get a bomb have a difficult
time explaining why Khamenei forbids it as un-Islamic and why
the president and others all deny it. It is possible that they are
lying, but their denials at least have to be noted and analyzed.
The skeptics also have to explain away why the 16 US
intelligence agencies say after exhaustive espionage and
investigation that there is no weapons program now and that
there hasn't been one for some time.

Those who agree with the CIA and the Defense Intelligence
Agency, as well as with the International Atomic Energy Agency,
that there is no evidence for Iran having a nuclear weapons
program have to explain Iran's insistence on closing the fuel
cycle and being able to enrich uranium itself.

The answer I propose, which explains all the anomalies elegantly
and concisely, is that Iran is seeking nuclear latency. Latency is
the possession of a nuclear energy program and of reactors,
which would allow the production of an atomic bomb on short
notice if an extreme danger to national autonomy reared its ugly
head. Nuclear latency is sometimes called the 'Japan option,'
because given its sophisticated scientific establishment and
enormous economy, Japan could clearly produce a nuclear
weapon on short notice if its government decided to mount a
crash program.

The reason for the construction of the Qom facility, in this
reading, would be that the Natanz facility is too easily bombed
or struck with missiles. Moreover, the Israelis and some
Americans have repeatedly threatened to strike it"

Gee, what a coincidence that varanazi just "dropped in " on this thread, eh?

Kinda like finding a paper passport in the rubble of the WTC.

I betcha Steve knows which poster occassionally morphs into varanazi, and further, I betcha he enjoys the knowledge. But you gotta wonder what kind of person is willing to show another person that kind of propensity for sleazy subterfuge. Is such a person proud to show Steve that kind of a side to their pysche???

And Paul, please don't get all indignant and bloated over this latest little amusing display of online animous and insult. (Amusing, AND enlightening. Isn't wiggie a real sweetheart after you peel away the snakeskin?) Everytime you pull this pious shit, you become that much less likable.

And if you think penis size isn't an issue in DC, than you aren't paying attention to what our "representatives" are doing in their free time, which, apparently, they have an over-abundance of. It seems, not only is Washington DC a huge money hole, its also a gigantic glory hole as well.

POA,

my question to Steve was motivated more by curiosity and amusement than indignation.

Yep, its just a coincidence, thats all it is.....

Posted by WigWag, Oct 07 2009, 1:01AM

Posted by varanassi, Oct 07 2009, 1:05AM

Posted by WigWag, Oct 07 2009, 1:10AM

Varanasi is a shark with a virtual blood detector
connected to his PC. When the insults at TWN and
other foreign policy blogs reach a certain level,
his passport turns red wherever he is.

paul - either that or fact the spelling of his previous twn name was slightly altered suggests the possibility someone else decided to sign in under the name, not paying attention to that little detail... only steve would be privy to that info... i enjoyed your 418am post btw...

Muhammad Sahimi, the one who was just on ABC Nightline, has
an article at antiwar.com today that lays it out in terms of Iran's
nuclear program:

Countering the Conniptions Over Qom

http://tinyurl.com/yaj9od4

And for those who don't trust tinyurl, here's the full address:

http://original.antiwar.com/sahimi/2009/10/06/countering-
the-conniptions-over-qom/

Muhammad also blogs at TehranBureau.com -- he's a professor
of Materials Science and Chemical Engineering at the University
of Southern California, so knows what he's talking about and is
also a really good man.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/tehranbureau/

Hindi is written in a different script, Devanagari, so Varanasi
might have just forgotten how he wrote his name last time. Or
he could have just been high on bhang lussi.

Can't believe I'm giving Varanasi props. He does seem to
categorically hate Muslims though, so maybe he is Wig. I think
he knows too much about India though, if he is the real
Varanasi, to think that India's going to be a powerhouse anytime
soon like Wig does.

Muhammad Sahimi, the one who was just on ABC Nightline, has
an article at antiwar.com today that lays it out in terms of Iran's
nuclear program:

Countering the Conniptions Over Qom

http://tinyurl.com/yaj9od4

Muhammad also blogs at TehranBureau.com -- he's a professor
of Materials Science and Chemical Engineering at the University
of Southern California, so knows what he's talking about and is
also a really good man.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/tehranbureau/

Hindi is written in a different script, Devanagari, so Varanasi
might have just forgotten how he wrote his name last time. Or
he could have just been high on bhang lussi.

Can't believe I'm giving Varanasi props. He does seem to
categorically hate Muslims though, so maybe he is Wig. I think
he knows too much about India though, if he is the real
Varanasi, to think that India's going to be a powerhouse anytime
soon like Wig does.

Check this out. Heres this piece of shit Reid unmdermining our attempts to shut down Guantanamo.....

http://www.fff.org/comment/com0910b.asp

Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-NV), speaking for himself and his spineless colleagues who had bowed to a Republican fear-mongering campaign, said, “This is neither the time nor the bill to deal with this. Democrats under no circumstances will move forward without a comprehensive, responsible plan from the president. We will never allow terrorists to be released into the United States.”

End excerpt....

As Rivero points out, over at WRH, how do we know they are "terrorists", considering they have never seen a judge, or legal representation??? Because some piece of shit like Gonzales, Petreaus, or Reid tells us they are??? Yeah, well we know how honest these scumballs are, don't we??

Reid is as despicable, if not more so, than Joe Lieberman. At least Joe Lieberman doesn't pretend to be anything other than a right wing mole fucking up any chances of a left wing concensus.

'Course, you won't read about any of Reid's betrayals on this blog, as he is one of Steve's shining stars. Just like Hagel's ESS scandal, Reid's scumwaddish political scullduggery is ignored.

As much as I like Steve, and respect a percentage of his stances, it seems that his opinions and commentaries are sometimes willfully lacking key items for consideration.

I'd love to see a commentary about what a fucking burr in Obama's saddle Reid has become. Because it is obviously a key factor in Obama's inability to institute any real change, even if he wanted to, (which I increasingly doubt as each day passes).

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/KJ01Ak01.html

Excerpt....

Washington was forced to admit sanctions did not work with the dictatorship in Myanmar. Now Washington wants to talk. Sanctions will not work on Iran either. It's ridiculous, for instance, to imagine Iraq joining a Western-enforced gasoline embargo on Iran. Besides, Persians are too proud and loaded with too much history to succumb to threats.

Israel, sundry Sunni Arab puppet rulers and dictators, the pathetic American right and the European right, these all fear Iran's regional clout and want to bring the regime down. The nuclear dossier could not be a more convenient cover story for regime change.

As much as the military dictatorship of the mullahtariat may be distasteful for the world and for a lot of Iranian citizens, the end does not justify the means. And the means won't lead to the desired end, as an attack on Iran will make the whole population rally behind the regime. Something is profoundly rotten in the so-called "international community" kingdom - minus Russia and China, by the way - when it lets global policy be determined by someone like Netanyahu.

Sanctions for what...letting the UN Weapons Inspectors in to examine everything? I support the IAEA's recent proosal that Isreal permit UN Weapons Inspectors into Isreal to have their nuclear program insopected...and I support sanctions on Isreal if they refuse.

"I support the IAEA's recent proposal that Israel permit UN Weapons Inspectors into Isreal to have their nuclear program inspected...and I support sanctions on Israel if they refuse." Kathleen Grasso Anderson

You, along with every other rational person in the universe, Kathleen.

Hmmm, I wonder if WigWag would be gracious enough to chime in with his/her androgynous opinion? Or Nadine? (I wonder if she's got an opinion on the subject?) ...Or questions, in a 1000 characters or less?

POA:

you continue to comport yourself as the irrational fool that you are.
I am not WigWag and WigWag is not me, but it doesn't surprise me
that you've developed yet another of your ridiculous conspiracy
theories based upon the timing of our comments. i'm sure that
steve can check IP addresses and verify identities if he so desires.

But, thanks for reminding me why I decided to stop reading your
drivel on these comment threads.

The next time I'm looking for an uneducated and itinerant
carpenters take on geopolitics, i'll be sure to look you up.

"The next time I'm looking for an uneducated and itinerant carpenters take on geopolitics, i'll be sure to look you up." varanassi

I'd rather have an uneducated and itinerant carpenter's take on geopolitics than a conceited, ignorant person's like yours, varanassi.

OA wrote:

"I think he knows too much about India though, if he is the real
Varanasi, to think that India's going to be a powerhouse anytime
soon like Wig does."

a powerhouse "soon"? try already, OA

...and as far as the extra S in my name, blame it on autofill.
mispelled it once and up it pops.

seriously flattered, though, that after such a long absence you
all still care so much.

...and btw, OA, i don't hate muslims. i am the product of a
hindu/muslim marriage, which is still taboo in india.

and it's called bhang lassi.

then ignore me, arthur. funny that you take the time to respond to
someone you hold in such contempt. that says a lot about you...
none of it flattering.

quick question:

why the hell does everybody care so much about the authorship of
unattributed and meaningless comments on a niche foreign policy
blog?

i find it confounding that anonymous folks with the names "..."
"OA" "Pissed Off American" get all bent about that the notion that
someone might be impersonating some other anonymous
commenter. who the hell cares?

this is hardly a collegial or intellectual endeavor where scholarship
and attribution matter. it's an unmoderated forum where any idiot
with a computer and a modem can make believe they are experts
with informed opinions.

India has to lose its insanity before it can ever become a
powerhouse.

One only needs to spend one minute in India trying to do
something real, LIKE SHOOT A COMMERCIAL, which I did in
1996, to realize that India is the theater of the absurd.

But I grew-up there, right next to Theatre Road/ Shakespeare
Sarani in Calcutta, on Mugunda Lal Mitra Road and also on Elliot
Road.

Who are you trying to kid Varanasi, about India being a
powerball, whoops, powerhouse, beyond WIg, who probably
thinks there's a Chink/ Wog handing the cash out behind her
ATM machine? She's got the Chink part right -- the Chinese
hold a vast percentage of our treasury bonds, can't type that
ever again.

India is a joke and will always be a joke until...who knows what
India will do. Kali is the goddess of death and destruction. If
one thinks Southern Baptists, Muslims or Catholics are randomly
insane, which I do, wait till you watch the Hindus in action.

PS Varanasi, I'm a chee-chee, so take your persecution complex
and shove it under Ganesh's toe.

Go fuck yourself, varanazi.

POA, If I may be so forward as to suggest: Varanasi is as ridiculous a contributor to reasoned intercourse as a python would be as the free-range pet for a family of fat, slow-moving, over-fed humans.

His contributions are facile, his displayed intellect marginal and his obvious conceit deplorable in any rational human.

varanasi - no one cares.. your timing was curious though and the spelling a bit interesting as well, especially as wigwag had lost her wig, while running out of wag when you decided to show up... you offered the perfect pile on at the perfect time.. i was open to it being wigwag as a consequence..

but now you have my curiosity again...why do you care so much? i doubt you're honest enough to acknowledge it... you are too busy trying to play nonchalant nothing matters.. if that was true you wouldn't have piped in when you did...

Hey Varanasi,
I believe that recently POA noted that he KNEW there were ways to post from the same computer but make it seem like you were different people and his conspiracy minded mind thinks I'm doing that -- I believe you use a "proxy server" and I believe that Iranians were doing much of this and people outside of Iran were setting up such servers to make things harder to trace. So I'm sure POA will just think you're posting from a proxy server and you googled to find one to use.....

POA finds patterns where there aren't any. I think Baudelaire called this "looking for noon at 2 o'clock." (But I might have the attribution wrong. It's a nice image, at any rate.)

questions, How you can even figuratively show your face around here after advocating and excusing the buying and selling of 12 year old sex slaves by American Military and Mercenary personnel because it keeps them happy while they're killing furriners mystifies me.

Obviously there's no shame gene in your DNA. And no moral center in your rotten-to-the-core makeup.

arthur, please, please, learn to read.

this corner of cyberspace truly is a confederacy of dunces.

OA writes:

"India is a joke and will always be a joke until...who knows what
India will do. Kali is the goddess of death and destruction. If
one thinks Southern Baptists, Muslims or Catholics are randomly
insane, which I do, wait till you watch the Hindus in action"

glad that you came to the conclusion that india is a "joke" after
shooting a commercial in india in 96'. surely this passes as
reasoned scholarship.

like i said before, this forum is a cesspool filled with vile,
uninformed, offensive, but often laughable pablum.

OA demonstrates a staggering degree of racism in his comment
above, as well as a foolishness usually reserved for teenage
miscreants.

"I believe that recently POA noted that he KNEW there were ways to post from the same computer but make it seem like you were different people and his conspiracy minded mind thinks I'm doing that"

Actually, thats a lie, I never stated anything remotely close to that. What I DID say is that I KNOW that posting under more than one monicker here is tolerated. What I won't say, is how I know this to be fact.

btw, OA, India's Hindu's have been "in action" for more than 5
millennia. further, India's Hindu and Muslim communities have
been living together - largely in peace - for 1,000 years.

since you labeled the world largest democracy a "joke" based on
nothing more than childhood memories, (are you even fluent in
bengali?), a 13 year old commercial shoot, and an obvious
animosity against hindus, i wonder if you can let us know what
countries aren't "jokes"?

POA, if I have the energy, I will search for that posting. It was fairly recent. I'm not sure I have the energy though. If I misread what you wrote, sorry. But no, for the nth time, I don't post under multiple names. But for you, with the way your mind works, I just proved the opposite by denying it. What is it called? Umm, a non-denial denial..... Aaargh.

I seem to remember your saying that you know for a fact that there are ways to post under multiple names without being detected. But maybe you didn't say that after all.....

So keep calling me a liar....

"arthur, please, please, learn to read."

quevestions, please, puh leaze, learn to be honest.

You know, arthur, your judgment about my honesty has no basis at all since you actually don't know anything about my motivations. So like I said, learn to read.

I lived in India for a year as an adult. Still think India's a joke. A
DANGEROUS joke, but a joke.

"World's largest democracy" don't know whether to laugh or cry
over that one.

Yeah the population of India is immense because the vast
majority of Indian women don't have any say as to how many
children they bear and if they do have access to ultrasound and
it's a female, well abortion clinic/ coat hanger there they go.

Of all the countries I've traveled in, and it's about 28, don't make
me count --that math major was decades ago -- I have never
felt so consistently that every single person I encountered was
trying to rip me off or sexually assault me in the case of men,
than in India.

We were shooting a multi-million dollar commercial with a
German/ American / Indian film crew. No, I am by no means
fluent in Hindi or Bengali, but when I am in India I can grasp the
basics. And we were shooting in Rajasthan not Bengal.

The Indian film crew, headed by a guy who I know you'd know
because he comes from a famous acting family, would talk
openly in Hindi about ripping us off. They did not believe I was
from India, because I do look Swedish, or Nordic -- a veritable
memsahib --so they would talk in front of me.

I tried to warn the Germans/ Americans, but they didn't believe
me either, because the Indian crew was so kiss ass to them, until
one day we were all sitting around and someone on the Indian
crew said something in Hindi, and I responded in English,
unconsciously translating what had just been said.

That's when the Indian producers and crew shut-up around me.
They'd already taken us for a lot of money.

The Indian producer of the shoot, a tool if there ever were one,
gave the American producer a a very small lingam as a parting
gift. The American producer had no idea what it was, but was
such a sucker that he was flattered at any gift. I said to the US
producer, " John, Kunal just gave you a tiny dick."

To non-Indian readers: a lingam is a representative of the God
Shiva's penis. One sees lingams all over Varanasi the city, which
I don't know if that has Questions-type philosophical deep
meaning in terms of Varanasi's screen name.

I brought a lingam home the first time I came back from India as
a joke gift for my non-self-hating Jew Man-of-Honor. He'd
bring it out at parties and say, "Look what OA (I do have a name
but am not willing to type it here) got me in India? A penis!"

Gee, OA, I'm sorry that you had a hard time on your commercial
shoot and ran into some unsavory people.

Still, to label a country of 1.2 billion people, with a 5,000 + year-
old culture a "joke," seems to me, a "joke."

Varanasi- prove to everyone how sane Hinduism is by telling us
why the Lord Ganesh has an elephant head.

Do it.

Again, I was in India for a year as an adult and EVERYONE I RAN
INTO WAS UNSAVORY. Well, no the Indian art director, a woman
of course, was quite nice. We wanted to bring her back to the
US with us to get her out of there and she wanted to come.

Even the Indians I've met living in the US have been jerky. Ready
to cheat you at a moment's notice and some have cheated my
family extensively.

I can think of two Indians, both incredibly wealthy old friends of
my dad, and one a Parsi, so that doesn't count, who were nice to
me the entire time I was there.

Otherwise India was non-stop sexual harassment and being
cheated on everything from fake bottled water to the price of a
phone call.

I did learn to bargain, because one has to bargain for everything
in India down to a bandaid. That was a good thing because I got
back to the US and got a new car for half its sticker price.

But the idea that India is going to get over its really true,
institutionalized, insanity is ludicrous.

BTW Varanasi: I'm related by marriage to Priyanka Gandhi and
thus to the entire Gandhi/ Neru dynasty. For awhile there, after I
left, I did keep following Indian politics to see how she was
doing. Indian politicians make Australian politicians seem sane
and American politicians seem sane AND polite. No mean feat.

And feel free to call me a self-hating Anglo-Indian. Neither the
British nor the Indians were nice to us and yet we built their
infrastructure and their school system, which exist to this day.
Get off your asses and get yourself organized is all I can say, and
lose that nutty religion, which is what I say to everyone.

"Varanasi- prove to everyone how sane Hinduism is by telling us why the Lord Ganesh has an elephant head."

You know, OA, judged by contemporary standards, all religions seem foolish. I don't know anything about Hinduism but I do know a little something about the Abrahamic faiths. Jews think their law, the Torah, was given to their Prophet Moses by a deity who appeared in the form of a burning bush. Christians believe that their Messiah is literally the son of the deity who rose from the dead; Catholic and Orthdox Christians believe that a priest has the ability through the intervention of the deity to convert ordinary wheat products and wine dispensed in a church into the literal body and blood of the "son" of said deity, Muslims think the Prophet of the deity asceneded to heaven from Jerusalem on a flying horse.

It seems to me that there is nothing any more or less silly about Hinduism than any other religion.

With all due respect, OA - and i'm really not trying to antagonize
you here - your xenophobic diatribes don't merit a response.

i'm sorry that you had such a hard time in my country. you're
certainly entitled to your opinions, but please realize how foolish
you come across when you dismiss a a rising economic and
military tiger - a country of 1.2 billion people of every faith - as a
joke.

no, OA, the joke is on you.

...and don't worry, india has no use for you either.

save your breath wig wag. anybody who espouses the
xenophobic stereotyping of OA and doesn't realize that religious
symbols and teachings are based upon metaphors and other
social constructs won't be able to grasp the nuance and common
threads that bind every faith.

...and just to let you know, wig wag, Hinduism is indeed a
monotheistic religion. much like OA, simple-minded people
tend to get distracted by Ganesh, Hanuman, Kali, Shiva, etc. and
focus on the supposed polytheistic idols of Hinduism, without
ever realizing that these beings are simply different
manifestations of the same all encompassing creator of the
universe.

clearly, OA, doesn't deal well with subtlety, critical reasoning or
ambiguity. she'd rather demonize hundreds of millions of
people from every faith and cultural background and call them
all a "joke." where i come from, we call this asinine... or worse.

Varanasi, it's not just India's rising economy and increasing military strength. Until recent times, India was a third world country. Despite this, higher education in India has been amongst the best in the world. India can claim 2 Nobel Prize winners in physics, 1 in medicine, 1 in economics and 1 in peace. If you count V.S. Naipaul (who is an ex-pat)India has won 2 Nobel prizes for literature (include Rudyard Kipling and it's 3) There's not a similarly situated nation in terms of wealth that has done nearly as well.

Culturally of course India is magnificent. Its literature, its art and its music (both Western and traditonal) are extraordinary.

Personally I regret that I don't know more about India but from what I do know, it sounds like an amazing (and a tolerant) nation that has a great future ahead of it.

"And just to let you know, wig wag, Hinduism is indeed a monotheistic religion. much like OA, simple-minded people tend to get distracted by Ganesh, Hanuman, Kali, Shiva, etc. and focus on the supposed polytheistic idols of Hinduism, without ever realizing that these beings are simply different manifestations of the same all encompassing creator of the universe." (Varanasi)

Very interesting. I believe the related concept in the Roman Catholic, Anglican and Christian Orthodox tradition would be trinitarianism. And of course in all three of these traditions, supplicants pray not only to the deity but also pray to saints asking for their intervention.

I will try to learn a little more about Hinduism; frankly I am embarrassed to know so little about a faith practiced by a billion people.

"Personally I regret that I don't know more about India but from
what I do know, it sounds like an amazing (and a tolerant) nation
that has a great future ahead of it."

a great future ahead as well as a great past behind.

there is no country on the face of this earth that is like india. no
society that is larger and more heterogeneous with such a wealth of
cultural diversity.

The american adage is that the US is a melting pot - people come
to america and quickly assimilate into "americans." india is more
like a sponge - for millennia india has been home to a multitude of
disparate cultures which have each retained their unique and
distinct cultures.

India's rising military is something to be scared of, but that's
because India is so bloody insane.

Varanasi, do tell us why Ganesh has an elephant head. Let the
US audience hear it. We all need a chuckle over here in America.

What different faiths and cultural backgrounds exist without
persecution in India? Who again are you trying to kid Varanasi,
beyond Wig?

Anglo-Indians (mixed bloods) built and maintained India's
infrastructure, and yet you treated us like crap, but now you're
claiming India does well with other cultures and faiths.

The Anglo-Indians left in India and the Indian Christians are
being killed, as are the Muslims in states like Gujarat. As are the
tribals.

Beyond that, you made my point: that Indian Hindus are too
wrapped up with all the different manifestations of their "god"
and what's involved in trying to find out if one is dealing with
Krishna or Vishnu at any given moment, to be able to deal with
the world's economy, much less nuclear weapons.

VS Naipaul is an idiot and from Trinidad. He's got about as
much right to talk about India as I do, except that I'm actually
from there.

BTW: Wig, Hanuman is a monkey.

I do predict this: that at some point India and Israel will go head
to head and India will win, even in her own chaotic way, because
she, like Israel, has no scruples but has a f*ckload more people.

wig wag:

thought you might be interested in reading what mark twain had
to say about india after his first and only trip to the subcontinent
in 1897:

"This is indeed India; the land of dreams and romance, of
fabulous wealth and fabulous poverty, of splendor and rags, of
palaces and hovels, of famine and pestilence, of genii and giants
and Aladdin lamps, of tigers and elephants, the cobra and the
jungle, the country of a thousand nations and a hundred
tongues, of a thousand religions and two million gods, cradle of
the human race, birthplace of human speech, mother of history,
grandmother of legend, great-grandmother of tradition, whose
yesterdays bear date with the mouldering antiquities of the rest
of the nations—the one sole country under the sun that is
endowed with an imperishable interest for alien prince and alien
peasant, for lettered and ignorant, wise and fool, rich and poor,
bond and free, the one land that all men desire to see, and
having seen once, by even a glimpse, would not give that
glimpse for the shows of all the rest of the globe combined."

—Mark Twain, Following the Equator,

but to OA, india and its people remain only a "joke." how very
thoughtful.

touche, OA.

again, OA, you display a staggering lack of understanding of the
society your purport to be from (funny how your story keeps
changing) and the over-the-top ignorance of your posts does not
warrant a serious response.

btw, india and israel are now amongst the closest of military allies,
but you wouldn't know anything about that, would you?

Actually, I just heard this AM that India and Israel had a bit of a
contretemps.

My story doesn't change at all: I am an Anglo-Indian from
Calcutta born to two Anglo-Indian parents. I came to the US at
a relatively young age and went back to India on two trips as an
adult, spending a year there total as an adult. I look Swedish.

Another poster on this board, easy e, has physically met me, and
I've also spoken with Kathleen Grasso Andersen on the phone --
who has met you Varanasi?

I'm not one of the crowd who are saying that you are indeed
another manifestation of Wig Wag, but I am growing a bit
suspicious about your and Wigs' simpatico and timing.

Like most Anglo-Indians I was raised a Catholic. I still have
relatives in India and I donate to a Catholic orphanage in
Calcutta, and they're having a hard time, as are many Christians
in India because of the rise of Hindu extremists.

I don't claim to know much about Hinduism except that my
mother, who lived all over India, because like most Anglo-
Indians her family was busy running around shoring up India's
infrastructure, had statutes of Hindu Gods and Goddesses all
over the house.

She'd pray to the Indian gods and goddesses when Christ failed
her. We didn't quite do puja between our novenas, but we came
close.

And whenever my mother got angry with us, which was often,
she would curse us in what I think was Hindi -- she can speak a
lot of Indian languages. "Sala ka butchas" was her favorite way
to describe us kids.

India might get her act together, but I would place bets that
before that UsRael will attack Iran and wham, bang, boom and
this whole conversation will mean jackshit.

OA just wrote:

"I don't claim to know much about Hinduism"

of course you don't, but it is refreshing to see that you're capable of
some degree of self awareness.

perhaps, if you "don't know much" about something as big as the
belief system of more than 1 billion people on this planet, you
might refrain from calling it a "joke." but then again, in this forum
and with you, this reactionary ignorance is par for the course.

"I do predict this: that at some point India and Israel will go head to head and India will win, even in her own chaotic way, because she, like Israel, has no scruples but has a f*ckload more people." (OA)

That's an interesting prediction, OA, especially given the fact that this year Israel passed Russia as the largest supplier of hardware to the Indian military. It's also interesting in light of the close cooperation between the Mossad and the R&AW and between the IDF and the Indian Navy. The Indians recently permitted Israel to test medium range ballistic missiles off its coast in the Indian Ocean.

Scientific cooperation between Israeli and Indian institutions of higher education is extremely close; especially in the areas of nanotechnology, genomics, and space research.

What's particularly interesting is the recent statement by Avigdor Lieberman in which he welcomed the possibility of India getting a permanent seat on the U.N. Security Council. In light of the fact that India has the third largest Muslim population in the world, this is quite noteworthy.

My guess, OA, is that the more powerful and influential India becomes the happier Israel will be.

After all, Israel, like India has been forced to confront the specter of Islamic extremism. It's really quite a hopeful sign that they have decided to fight this common menace as allies.

By the way, OA, V.S. Naipaul while not born in India is of Indian decent. He is also one of the great authors of the 20th Century. That he is reviled in Pakistan for his work "Among the Believers" (which was a great book) is far more a reflection on the idiocy that holds sway in Pakistan than it is on the quality of Naipaul's work. By the way, his non-fiction book on his travels in the American South, "A Turn in the South" is also fantastic.

And Naipaul's fiction is as good or better than his non-fiction. "A House for Mr. Biswas" is one of the great books of the last 50 years.

If you haven’t read it you should.

"India might get her act together, but I would
place bets that before that UsRael will attack Iran
and wham, bang, boom and this whole conversation
will mean jackshit."

To me it looks like Outraged feels so uncomfortable
right now, that she`s desperately hoping for some
WWIII or earthquake sort of event to escape from
the whole damned conversation.

...and don't forget their joint space programs, wig-wag.

but really, why engage someone who makes such outlandish,
uninformed and derogatory statements about a subject matter they
admittedly know nothing about?

Varanasi, you have yet to explain how a major Hindu god has the
head of an elephant.

After that you can convince us about how rational India is.

Of course, Varanasi is not going to reply to your bigoted question, OA. The idea that as a person of Indian decent he owes you an explanation for this religious phenomenon is absurd.

I don't see you prefacing your comments addressed to Western readers of the Washington Note with the question of how a wafer and a cup of cheap red wine is literally transformed into the body and blood of the Son of God.

You know perfectly well that religious iconography can be viewed from a literal or from a metaphoric perspective.

Yes, religious zealots of all faiths tend to take the literalist perspective and it is these people who are responsible for most of the intolerance associated with religion. But this certainly doesn't characterize Hinduism more than it characterizes any other faith tradition.

Anyone with access to the internet can find a description of Ganesh, Yaweh, Jesus, Moses or Muhammad. These deities, (or in the case of Moses or Muhammad, prophets), are all associated with rituals and beliefs which when measured against standards of the modern world look bizarre.

Your question to Varanasi reveals more about you than it does about Varanasi, Hinduism or religion in general.

Your question proves that bigots come from all national backgrounds and religious persuasions.

What in the name of God is wrong with you?

Wig, I am of Indian descent as well. You admitted that you don't
know Hinduism, most Americans probably think it's a new band,
so let Varanasi explain at least Ganesh and his elephant head.

I hate all religions. I think they're all a load of rot, meant
primarily to keep the peasants down and start wars.

I donate to a Catholic orphanage, not because I have any
residual feelings for Catholicism, although I do think that Jesus,
should he have existed, set down some good ground rules.

I donate because those kids are the Anglo-Indians who didn't
get out of India, because of British malfeasance, and are now
being persecuted by the very Indian "culture" that Varanasi
claims is so tolerant.

If you aren't Varanasi, as many have alleged, but not me, then I
would venture to guess you've never stepped foot in India. He's
feeding you a line of utter BS.

So before you talk about bigotry I would suggest that you read
the Indian newspapers, many of which are available in English
online versions. Read about Indian politics if you need a good
laugh.

But I would like Varanasi's explanation, metaphorical or literal,
about Ganesh, because I had an Indian friend (and I do have one)
try to explain it to me. This guy is a world famous writer and I
still didn't get it.

perhaps someone can read this thread and explain to me why i
should engage OA in any dialogue about a religion - my religion -
which she has already defamed?

if you truly wish to learn more about Hindu mythology and the
legend of Ganesh, try Wikipedia. i won't waste my breath with a
bigot.

in regards to the ongoing (pathetic) debate about whether Wig Wag
and I are the same person, we're not.

varanasi - adding to the conversation again i see!

Some months ago I read an article in the Globe and Mail on the discovery of the locations in the brain where religious delusions are created by our own body chemistry.

I'm sure it was published widely at the time and will be easy to source on the net.

If I remember correctly, arthurdecco, something like 2/3 of people have brains which mandate adherence to some kind of religious beliefs and 1/3 do not. Still prefer the old library classification system under which all religous works, including the Christian bible, were classified under mythology.

I understand the power of myth, and know that it can sometimes be associated with humanitarianism, but at least 1/3 of us don't need it, and many of us are quite moral and humane.

As imaginatively interesting, the various tribal myths are appealing. As anything else, they are, well, myths, much more important as part of the story of the evolution of the human mind and human societies than anything else.

Sad how often they have been abettors of war and human suffering, not stays against or ameliorators of. Truly sad, and good reason not to hold the various religions in too high esteem.